Bombings In London

Stringer Bell said:
I knew someone is going to reply with a comment like this :roll:

Thats not what i'm trying...i'm saying it's best to think for yourself and analize stuff...not just believe everything the media and the all the leaders say.

Anyways you can think how you want to think jamie_mack....remember how all the German ppl was holding on to everything Hitler was saying and putting out...well.....the rest is history.
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He has a point guys, what interests is there for the Islamic Extremists to blow up shit in London if all does galvanizes the public into backing Blair on the war on terror and Iraq, in the long run going against them. Think about it, who really stands to benefit from this, who has the motive? In my humble opinion the government because of the timing of the G8 summit on globalism, the public support for Iraq and the war on terror is waning, people have become distrustful of Blair, the backlash on the ID cards and the proposed terror bills they try to push through.

I couldn't recommend enough for you to go through these webpages thoroughly and see for yourselves if what I had said has any credibility:

http://www.cremationofcare.com/the_nwo_070705londonbombs.htm
http://www.propagandamatrix.com/
http://www.prisonplanet.com/
http://www.infowars.com/
 
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denirobob said:
Hi mate (csaunders)


I'm sorry but I really don't see how you can possibly say that with all the evidence that points to the fact that it did. I realise Condoleeza Rice has been saying exactly that today and The British Government has of course been saying the same, but that is of course only to be expected.


Intelligence warnings from MI5 and MI6 before the invasion to disarm Iraq did not merely say that it would provoke retaliation from existing terrorist groups. They warned that the action, as with the illegal assault on Afghanistan, would create more terrorists; e.g. that it would drive more ordinary people towards violence.

Blair rejected terror warnings - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/09/12/ndoss12.xml&sSheet=/news/2003/09/12/ixnewstop.html

Cabinet aware of war terror risk - http://politics.guardian.co.uk/iraq/story/0,,1040948,00.html

CIA says Iraq is now a terrorist training ground - http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2005-06-22T193543Z_01_N22703390_RTRIDST_0_INTERNATIONAL-SECURITY-IRAQ-CIA-DC.XML


The CIA informed Congress last October that they knew of no link between Iraq and Al-Qaeda-style terrorism, but believed that an attack on Iraq would substantially increase the likelihood of terrorist attacks against the West. They argued that it would likely inspire a new generation of terrorists bent on revenge, and could even provoke Iraq into carrying out pre-prepared terrorist strikes.


Given how manifestly unjust the invasion of Iraq was (See the Downing Street Memos http://www.downingstreetmemo.com/ and other leaked documents), coupled with the almost global opposition to it at the time, the intelligence services were pretty much stating the obvious.

Obviously rejecting a policy simply because certain terrorist groups will react badly is of course, wrong. Rejecting a policy because it will inflame existing terrorists, create new ones and because it is manifestly wrong anyway is entirely sensible.

The argument against the attack and occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq had a number of different levels, mainly the large loss of innocent life and the absence of 'democracy and freedom' other than as propaganda tools. However, when it was claimed by the aggressors that their wars were justified by the 'terrorist threat', it's necessary to counter that by pointing out that one of the likely consequences would be increased terror in response.

Extremists are able to gain support across the Middle East precisely because Western claims of 'democracy and freedom' are not true. To the people of the Middle East 'democracy and freedom' are empty slogans wheeled out to justify colonial occupation and dictatorship, recent support for the brutal Karimov regime in Uzbekistan is evident proof of this.


Entirely innocent people in NY, London, Madrid, Turkey and the Middle East have and are losing their lives due to the abhorrent nature of extremists on both sides who see terrorism - whether in the form of Al-Qaeda attacks or State organised "War" as a method to achieve their ends.


Only by pretending otherwise can it be suggested that an attack on my country wasn't explicitly a response to the occupation of Iraq but instead simply because 'they hate our freedoms'.


all the best


db


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Hi RuneEdge,


The horrific Sept 11 attacks were a direct result of decades of a US Government Foreign Policy that has seen Financial & Military support given to some of the World's most brutal and oppresive regimes/dictators, mainly (although not exclusively) to ensure the control of Global & Strategic energy resources. Whilst this support may not be so well known by ordinary people in the West, in Latin & Central America, Africa, South East Asia and of course the Middle East it is well known, and as such presents a breeding ground where such injustice and resentment can lead to people commiting the most despicable of acts.


It goes without saying, in no possible way does this foreign policy justify the murder of over 3000 innocent people.


I'm afraid I've got to go now, and am off all next week, but I'll try to post some links later.

cheers


db



ps - CS, RuneEdge please don't take my posts as a personal assault or anything like that, I apologise to everyone in advance if my tone is too aggressive.
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britians foreign policy is very similar to the US, so your point is gone on me.... if you honestly think that these extremists dont hate britain for other reasons then Iraq, your off your rocker. You sound intelligent and im not taking this personally, but calling the invasion of afghanistan illegal, is a load of shit..... Our prescense in Iraq im not for, but the terrorist who stuck london could care less about Iraq....
 
You've taken my quote totally out of context and if you read my post you will see that is not what I'm trying to say at all. They are enemies of all human kind, but my point was the actions of some have bought this evil here.
 
csaunders said:
britians foreign policy is very similar to the US, so your point is gone on me.... if you honestly think that these extremists dont hate britain for other reasons then Iraq, your off your rocker. You sound intelligent and im not taking this personally, but calling the invasion of afghanistan illegal, is a load of shit..... Our prescense in Iraq im not for, but the terrorist who stuck london could care less about Iraq....
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Remind me again why they invaded Afghanistan?
 
RuneEdge said:
Thats a fair point but what about when America was attacked? Iraq wasnt invaded then. It happened after that.
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ahh but it was iraq 1 and for 10 years america has been bombing the shit out of iraq nearly every day killing 500 000 people with sanctions and bombs.

then USA surpported and trained al queada when the russians where in afghan then put sanctions on them. no wonder everyone is pissed off.
 
JayD said:
Remind me again why they invaded Afghanistan?
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The people who didn't commit the 9/11 atrocities where supposedly based in Afghanistan. 9/11 was a pretext to make war and bring chaos all over the world. There is a saying Order out of Chaos, the rich and powerful want a New Order and New World Order.
 
Terrible, just shocking. The world is a fucked up place, keep your heads high. You'll never walk alone.
 
widget_man said:
ahh but it was iraq 1 and for 10 years america has been bombing the shit out of iraq nearly every day killing 500 000 people with sanctions and bombs.

then USA surpported and trained al queada when the russians where in afghan then put sanctions on them. no wonder everyone is pissed off.
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those were UN sanctions not US..... yeah and the brits didnt train them either?
 
csaunders said:
because it was a terrorist heaven, cmon that has been proven over and over again, your just a player hater
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No doubt it was , but they had no interest here at that time. America has been a target for a while due to it's unjust Palestine-Isreal policies, But England was never a target until they got involved in George Bushes plan for world dominance.
 
Siroco said:
db, will all need to learn brevity -- but man you take the prize!

Here's something more sane, more relevant to the discussion, IMO.

From Johann Hari--

Anybody who tells you these bombers are fighting for the rights of Muslims in Iraq, occupied Palestine or Chechnya should look at the places they chose to bomb. Aldgate? The poorest and most Muslim part of the country. Edgware Road? The centre of Muslim and Arab life in London and, arguably, Europe...

Does anybody need greater evidence that these Islamic fundamentalists despise Muslims who choose to live in free societies, and they would enslave Muslims everywhere if they were given the opportunity?

Nor is this tit-for-tat revenge for deaths in Iraq: very similar jihadist plots have been foiled in France and Germany, countries that opposed the invasion. Anybody who doubted that the fight against Islamic fundamentalism – a murderous totalitarian ideology – was always our fight should know better now.
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Hi

yeah sorry about that, did go on longer than intended, but I was attempting to write something backed up by evidence.

I've read that piece by Hari - I assume you know he was for the Invasion right from the start, so is hardly likely to be first up to condem it.


Anyway if youre interested - here's an email exchange with Hari....

Dear Johann Hari,


Where is the context to your piece on the London Bombings? Where is your criticism of Atheo-Christo-Judeo-Fascism in Falluja, Camp X-ray, Abu Grahib, the obvious inspirations for the attack? All fallen off your radar?

The mass of the British public didn't want this war. YOU cheered it on. We were warned by the CIA that this would happen, and now it's happened. Somehow you still find the nerve to continue trying to muddy the water with your pseudo Churchillian posing.

The bottom line: This wouldn't have happened without the "War on Terror". Scores of Londoners and tens of thousands of Iraqis would still be alive today. Think about that, and maybe try writing about it if you dare. Martin Johnson
Brighton.

-

Hi (...)


Why do you think there were jihadist plots in France and Germany? Why do you think they chose to blow up London's two biggest Muslim areas - Aldgate and Edgware Road - even though they know they were against the war? This wasn't about Iraq. it has far deeper causes. It was about backing tyranny in the ME for fifty years in exchange for oil, creating this crazy movement.

Yours, Johann


-

The crazy movement that Hari talks about has clearly been excacerbated (sp?) by the Invasion of Iraq - that's why i posted the links above as Intelligence experts knew that would be the case.

Iraq a site to train terrorists, CIA says http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2005/06/23/iraq_a_site_to_train_terrorists_cia_says/

cheers

db
 
JayD said:
No doubt it was , but they had no interest here at that time. America has been a target for a while due to it's unjust Palestine-Isreal policies, But England was never a target until they got involved in George Bushes plan for world dominance.
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hahaaahah do you happen to have this secret plan.... cmon man, get real.... so your probably of the mind set that we deserved 9/11 and the brits didnt deserve this, if that is the case, then we no longer need to have this conversation, your reaching at straws...
 
Check this out.....taken moments after the bombing of the Bus:

2.jpg


3.jpg


Its unbelieveable that the people coming down from the top of the bus were actually in there during the blast. As they were in the front, they left unscathed :shock:
 
It is amazing they are moving, let alone stood and looking / walking around up there. What is saddening though is that between the taxi and there are many bodies / body parts in a horrible mess.
 
csaunders said:
hahaaahah do you happen to have this secret plan.... cmon man, get real.... so your probably of the mind set that we deserved 9/11 and the brits didnt deserve this, if that is the case, then we no longer need to have this conversation, your reaching at straws...
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Wrong, I'm of the mindset that no one deserves this. My point is, what bought it to these shores was Tony Blairs Insitance of following George Bush into his unjust invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq and causing the deaths of 100,000's of CIVILIANS in the process. There is NO and I repeat NO excuse for terrorism, wether it be from Al-Qaeda or it's off shoots or from the US or Britain under the guise of a government.
 
Well, there's no doubt that this was all exacerbated by Iraq as someone said --

the image of tens of thousands of women lining up to vote in Afghanistan and Iraq -- all giving these guys and their 9th century mentality, the collective ink-stained MIDDLE FINGER -- was just too much.

The terrorists have absolutely nothing on there side except the delusions of a heaven welcoming martyrs who blow up themselves in order to take out innocent women in children...

And, it seems, a few Evo-webbers who want to appease these thugs...That's not enough to win in the end.
 
I'd be very suprised and disgusted if one person on here felt anything but total hate for the terrorists. But the fact is some people acknowledge that Bush and Blair are also terrorists responsible for the deaths of 100,000's
 
JayD said:
Wrong, I'm of the mindset that no one deserves this. My point is, what bought it to these shores was Tony Blairs Insitance of following George Bush into his unjust invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq and causing the deaths of 100,000's of CIVILIANS in the process. There is NO and I repeat NO excuse for terrorism, wether it be from Al-Qaeda or it's off shoots or from the US or Britain under the guise of a government.
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you cant even see your condriticting your self, and your naive and ignorant for beleiving that this is because of Iraq, and a third point, afghanistan was not illegal, the US congress gave Dubya permission to invade afghanistan, the UN has not control over me, the UN is a sham, a place for pompus frogs and other jealous countries to pretend they are again the great powers they used to be. Bush had every right and reason to invade afghanistan, its unfathomable to me how you can see otherwise. Iraq was wrong, i know that, i dont agree with it. If you think the goal of these terrorists is to have you back out of iraq, well your just not listening to what these groups have been saying for years. Western Countries to them are full of infidels, the sole purpose and drive of these terrorits is to deystroy western societys way of life, it has nothing to do with the invasion of iraq or afghanistan, it has everything to do with there ideology and hatred of the west. They lock young men and women in houses, dont let them watch "the oc" wear Ben Sherman clothes,
listen to rap, or have any the life we have had in the west. All they do is preach hatred and blame all of the lifes problems on the United States and other western countries including britain. Then when they turn 18 they let them loose, and this is what you get in london and new york. They breed hatred and take the views of a few muslims and make it seem this is the view of all muslims(which any educated person can see is not the general view of muslims across the world. Do you honestly think if you pulled out of Iraq today that britian would never ever expereince terrorisim again? Honestly......
 
No I don't because the seeds have been sown, but it would definatly reduce the risk and slow down the uptake of people adhering to this sick , perverted methodology. Also i'm afraid youv'e been listening to too many of George Dubya's emotive speeches. The western way of life is just that, and no one has any right to Impose that upon anyone else, which America is hell bent on doing. Bush's only reason for invading Afghanistan was oil, plain and simple. As for the US congress giving permission to invade, then who the heck are they to determine the legality of the slaughter of innocent civillians, thats as stupid as the terrorists saying their acts are legal because their leaders gave them permission. It's all wrong and thats the difference between our arguments, I am saying that both these sets of people are murderous individuals but you can only see it from one point of view. There are many injustices in the world and sadly America is behind or at least supports a lot of them. And continue to get away with it because people like you refuse to believe they are wrong. The fact that you admit the Iraq invasion was wrong should be enough for you or anyone to drive Bush out of power, because what can all those lives lost be described as except murder. Men , women , children, Iraqi , American , all because of George's ERROR.
 
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...same old, same old...

Today's passage:

If Dubya and Blair hadn't invaded Iraq, the terrorists would leave us alone.

Before 9/11:

If the U.S. wasn't in bed with the Jews, the terrorists would leave us alone.

WWII:

If we just let Hitler take Czech., he'll leave Europe alone.

The voices of appeasement -- "if we just go away, maybe so will they."
 
JayD said:
No I don't because the seeds have been sown, but it would definatly reduce the risk and slow down the uptake of people adhering to this sick , perverted methodology. Also i'm afraid youv'e been listening to too many of George Dubya's emotive speeches. The western way of life is just that, and no one has any right to Impose that upon anyone else, which America is hell bent on doing. Bush's only reason for invading Afghanistan was oil, plain and simple. As for the US congress giving permission to invade, then who the heck are they to determine the legality of the slaughter of innocent civillians, thats as stupid as the terrorists saying their acts are legal because their leaders gave them permission. It's all wrong and thats the difference between our arguments, I am saying that both these sets of people are murderous individuals but you can only see it from one point of view. There are many injustices in the world and sadly America is behind or at least supports a lot of them. And continue to get away with it because people like you refuse to believe they are wrong. The fact that you admit the Iraq invasion was wrong should be enough for you or anyone to drive Bush out of power, because what can all those lives lost be described as except murder. Men , women , children, Iraqi , American , all because of George's ERROR.
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Hi

I thought considering the way this thread has gone theres no point in trying to answer each post individually, I hope you'll forgive me for that.

History did not start with Sept 11, and the barbaric totally unjustified killing of 3000 innocent people can only give justification for anything else that comes after if the lives of 10's of thousands of innocent Afghans & Iraqis are considered less important than western (primarily US & UK) lives.

I have no moral quandry here because like JayD I am able to condem both sets of extremists be they islamic fanatical cunts who will blow up people in trains & buses either as a result of a totalatarian idealogy that will not accept compromise or because they have twisted a legitimate grievance (e.g. Western support for Dictators in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Iraq, Iran etc... / Western occupation in the heart of the Middle East) into an evil act of unforgivable savagery that targets innocent people.

Or western leaders in suits - who preach peace whilst destroying socities with sanctions, depleted uranium, torture camps and new style napalm - http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2003/030810-napalm-iraq01.htm. Who preach freedom and democracy whilst maintaining support for some of the most brutal dictators in the world - http://www.hrw.org/press/2002/03/karimovprof.htm

Who talk of that great Orwellian phrase "Collateral damage" knowing full well that thousands and thousands of innocent people will die as a result of their actions but go ahead anyway. Who say they are protecting our freedoms at the same time as reducing them with Patriot acts and ID cards and who will brazenly lie again and again to ensure public support for a globally unpopular war - http://www.downingstreetmemo.com/memos.html safe in the knowledge that the mainstream media will let them get away with it just as they refuse to discuss PNAC - http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqclintonletter.htm

No doubt, as Siroco has just done, I will be accused of appeasment, or maybe be countered with an opinion piece by a (supposed lefty) pro war commentator that tops the viewpoint of the actual intelligence services in the UK & US, sourced from pieces across the political spectrum. So be it. I'm not going to bother coming back to the discussion i don't think, as I don't see any purpose it's going to serve, but maybe some of you will be interested in this book by Mike Scheuer, the former head of the Bin Laden/Al Qaeda unit at the CIA - http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1574888498/ref=pd_sxp_f/104-1516006-1935123

once again sorry for the length of this, cheers.

db
 
Siroco said:
...same old, same old...

Today's passage:

If Dubya and Blair hadn't invaded Iraq, the terrorists would leave us alone.

Before 9/11:

If the U.S. wasn't in bed with the Jews, the terrorists would leave us alone.

WWII:

If we just let Hitler take Czech., he'll leave Europe alone.

The voices of appeasement -- "if we just go away, maybe so will they."
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Are you actually reading the posts?
 
Siroco said:
1. They attack Red Cross personnel.
2. They murder people working for the UN.
3. They kidnap and kill care workers.
4. They bomb holiday-makers, in nightclubs.
5. They blow up people travelling on trains - civilians.
6. They target people on buses - civilians.
7. They take civilian hostages.
8. They decapitate them.
9. They murder trade unionists.
10. They kidnap diplomats.
11. They kill people for being... barbers.
12. They fly aircraft full of civilians into skyscrapers where people are at work.
13. They take schoolchildren hostage and murder them.
14. They bomb synagogues.
15. They kill people shopping in a market.
16. They kill people queuing at a medical clinic.
17. They murder children in Baghdad.
18. They murder people on their way to work in London.
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America and USA kill the innocent as well! A lot more, in hundreds of thousands, and also steal oil.
 
JayD said:
Are you actually reading the posts?
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Yes, one of your main points is that if it wasn't for the actions of Bush and Blair, those evil terrorists -- which you so strongly condemn -- would have stayed in their part of the world. 7/7 was a direct consequence of Blair's support of Bush.

And

Prior to 9/11, it was the U.S. support of Israel that got us in trouble with the terrorists. If we just kept the money from flowing over there, the evil terrorists would have stayed in their part of the world.

Hence my comment:

The voices of appeasement -- "if we just go away, maybe so will they."
or more accurately,

"If we just do want they want, maybe they won't want any more" as I've seen written somewhere.

Stick your head in the sand and hope for the best; in the meantime, blame the U.S. for all the injustice in the world.

So am I reading the posts? I think I got you spot on.
 
Rest in peace to all the innocent people who died

and to those who survived i hope ye wont have to experience these things again!

The people who done this a evil bastards who deserve to be killed
 
This discussion is going in circles, because it's too emotive a subject.

It's incredibly simple - bombing innocent people to death for your own ends, and backing it up with lies is WRONG.

It's wrong in Afghanistan, it's wrong in Iraq, it was wrong in El Salvador, Nicaragua, Honduras, Columbia, Bolivia, East Timor, or anywhere else the US has struck. It's also wrong in New York, Madrid, Bali or London, or anywhere else the terrorists have struck.

PS CSaunders' comments on the UN are the most pathetic thing I've ever read. For your information, the sanctions on Iraq were UN sanctions in name, but they were prosecuted entirely by the United States and Britain, and they in fact led to the resignation of two very high-ranking members of the UN (including one vice-secretary-general) who called them 'genocidal'. But such is America's power within the UN, they could override the objections.

It's not as petty as being about Bush or Blair, it's about the way the West treats the rest of the world, and has done for many many years. People are quite right to be outraged by terrorism in London or anywhere else - but if you're not equally outraged by state terrorism in places like Iraq, then there's something seriously wrong with you.
 
Proper random day today....Was in Birmingham yesterday for a mates wedding and the whole city centre was cleared out!

Today, on my way back to London by coach, Police blocked out large sections of Golders Green - any idea what happened there today?

Also, surprise surprise, the CCTV camera on the number 30 bus wasn't working :roll: - police are now relying on mobile camera taken by passer-bys prior to the blast
 
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