Brexit

[PIPA23]

From a perspective of foreigner i have to say i fear leaving the EU will not solve the problems Europan nations are facing together..

I can understand frustration of people, everyone is afraid of immigration, only they forget that most, if not all the recent terror attacks were done by people who are already born in those countries... so the problem is much deeper than voting to leave and hoping it will be all over tomorrow.... in fact where there is poverty, people are getting even more mad and desperate....look at post WWI Germany....and what the poverty lead to back then...

I can understand people being angry and mad about the situation... this is a clear signal for EU that there is something very wrong with it...

But i think for people who work it is better to be a part of EU... UK should review their benefit system that allows people from rest of EU countires claim benefits and it is the main reason why immigrants want to come... UK should not be angry at people from rest of EU who come to work and help UK´s economy... because now i can´t even imagine what these people will do and what would UK do without them... if you think the employers don´t need these people, you might be wrong i believe.

 

[gerd]

I also wanted to start a Brexit thread. Good idea, Pipa!
I would like to know how British evo-webbers have voted and why.

Personally i'm very disappointed that the British people voted for the Brexit, although i can understand them.
This European Union has become an undemocratic moloch, that is far too bureacratic. People in Ivory towers in Brussels make decions that influence all the people all over Europe and the EU only seems an economic Unoin and not a social.
On top of that, Brittain was Always 'different' (that is one of the things that attract me to Brittain, when i write 'different', i see it as something positive). Still, when i hear somebody like Nigel Farage, i become somewhat afraid.

I'm gonna write something very controversial.

IMO the biggest mistake the EU made was to open up for the Easter European countries after the fall of the Iron curtain in 1989. I think the western countries did that to prevent people from eastern Europe migrating to the West. In practice, this hasn't worked.

Perhaps they should have waited longer befor opening up to those countries. I might be wrong but i have a feeling that those countries and their citizens don't have the democratic traditions 'we' have. This makes it very difficult to discuss on the same level (it seems as if i think that 'we' are on a higher level than 'they' are, that is not true at all). I also think the cultural differences are too big.

When i hear people like Orban or the Polish twins that once ruled there...their discourse is so different from what we hear from our politicians (and lest's be honest, our leaders are not necessarily better, far from that).

I hope this isn't seen as being racist, it isn't meant to be like that in the least, but something in the Eu isn't functioning. This is caused by a democratic deficit but also because the cultural differences seem too big to me. But perhaps there is no alternative.

I hope people like Pipa and other people from countries like Hungary, Poland, Serbia, Craotia and others don't feel offended. What i wrote wasn't meant to be offensive and i don't feel superior at all...just very different...

 

[Chris Davies]

It's an emotive subject here - if you're voting to leave something like the EU then you have to have a pretty powerful feeling about it, and those who've voted remain (like myself) are equally determined that we had to stay to safeguard our economy and because a union is better for humanity.

Therefore, decent and good-humoured discourse within the country between the two sides is difficult (and I don't have high hopes for this thread), and I include myself in this - it's difficult to keep emotions in check at the moment.

What this referendum has shown is that there's a massive divide in Britain - with age playing a large factor in that - between those who think immigrants are coming to claim our benefits, take our jobs and blow us up all at the same time, and those who aren't racist.

(I can't help but be as blunt as that, because - especially now - that's how it feels. I know a few people who voted to leave, and a couple of choice quotes from each one of them - "we used to be Great Britain", a nonsense saying that means nothing - "we'll all be muslim soon", like that's the worst thing in the world and like it makes any kind of fucking sense anyway - "the elite rule this country", yet they've just voted to hand power from a union with mixed interests to a government with one interest - "we pay too much to the EU", despite already losing more money through the FTSE crash already than we'd ever pay - "we need a change", stabbing yourself in the bollocks is a change, but that doesn't make it an intelligent idea does it - "we need to take our country back", again, utter drivel that's the product of greed and xenophobia.)

Of course, there will be "leave" voters who say that's not who they are and that they voted for very different, and non-racist, reasons. Fair enough. But I can only go off my experience, and the experience of all my closest friends - aged between 25-35 - and that's our reality.

Our National Health Service was already, pre-referendum, being pushed towards privatisation, and the promise from the "leave" campaign was that without being in the EU, there would be £300m+ savings that the NHS will benefit from. Already, Nigel Farage - leader of UKIP, who are the multiple-person form of Donald Trump - has backtracked on this and said that might not be right. That's within 12 hours of the result becoming known.

The other key for me is how the word "bravery" is being banded about by these anti-EU politicians. So far today, I've read several quotes that say something along the lines of "I'm glad Britain was brave enough to vote to leave". Astonishing how "brave" can be substituted with "scared" - especially by Rupert Murdoch's all-powerful media conglomerate, which has influenced a huge amount of those "leave" voters, particularly the millions of brain-starved Sun (newspaper) readers who don't question headlines without facts and/or sources - without any of those voters batting an eyelid.

They desperately want to believe that about themselves, that they're brave, and that Britain will now be "Great" again, and that they won't have to pretend they don't mind talking to that foreigner at the bottom of their road who they can't understand and who keeps parking too close to their house so they should be deported.

I'm truly ashamed of (52% of) my country, but here's something - the "leave" voters repeat their mantra of "we're not 'Great' Britain any more", and now, at least, the remain voters agree.

It's just that we have very different reasons for feeling that way...

 

[Jamezinho]

I voted leave for a number of reasons.

I was going to write more about why I voted this way (Gerd's point is very valid) but after reading the breathtaking level of sneering in the above post I shall not bother.

By the way, I'm 35, degree educated, not in any way xenophobic, racist or a little-englander. I'm pro-Europe but anti-EU.

 

[gerd]

That is a very interesting post Chris.
I have to concede that i haven't followed the debate in Brittain that much.

Didn't know that the racist element was so important.

The same goes for Belgium too and this with big differences between the North (Flemish) and Southern (Walloon) part of the country.

The North is rich, rightist and scared.
The South is poor, leftist and scared for different reasons.

The North is afraid to loose it's wealth, the Sout is afraid to become even poorer.

Brussels has a very high unemployment rate among young Muslim people and has the highest rate of Syria warriors in the world.

Recently th polls give a high percentage of the votes for an ultra rightist (racist) party in Flanders and a to an extreme leftist party in Wallonia... not a very promising cocktail.

21th century society is very complicated....

 

[sauce]

I don't really know what's all about. But if it is this rich/poor right/left its alarming. We are about to go down!

There's either a revolution or a civil war near, these disagreements are happening all over the world, it won't take long for fear to fuck things up again.

Hope I'm wrong tho.

 

[Godotelli]

I didn't expect it but I'm very happy

I've never been at all patriotic tbh but seeing my country standing up to fear does make me proud.

I wish the European nations well, I hope the shock of us leaving will make the arrogant unelected EU elites consider being more democratic and accountable in the future.

 

[Jamezinho]

I didn't expect it but I'm very happy!

I've never been at all patriotic tbh but seeing my country standing up to fear does make me proud.

I wish the EU member states well, I hope the shock of us leaving will make the arrogant unelected EU elites consider being more democratic for those who are left.

If they had given the UK a few concessions it would never have come to this. Cameron's fruitless trip to Brussels last year only demonstrates how little influence we have in the EU despite being a major financial contributor and the world's fifth largest economy.

People have had enough. They see that we have no influence, no control, and the British people have spoken. I blame the EU for this above all else. They had the power to stop this.

I take no happines or pleasure in this referendum result. It's a sad day for the UK and Europe, but in the long-term I think the UK will be better off for it. There's a good chance the EU will collapse under its own weight anyway, what with so many economies teetering on the brink (Spain, Italy, Greece, Portugal) and it's eastward expansion into poorer nations.

 

[gerd]

The difference between the haves and the have nots is ever increasing and sooner or later this will lead to desperate acts and violence.

I have respect for Jamzinho's opinion (i wrote my post before i had read his by the way).

I'm not sure but i have the impression that leaving the EU(with it's massive shortcomings) would be a big mistake.

I could well be wrong, but the image we have about Brittain is that it is a country that is loosing it's social safety net. I'm pretty sure that our sociale safety net is among the best in the world (but also among the most expensive). Rightist parties are asking questions about this safety net that is disappearing in Brittain.

The EU is not social enough, but IMO if Brittain leaves the EU, the poorest people will suffer most.

I also want to write something more about my first post where i said that IMO it was a mistake to open up the EU so soon for the former East Bloc countries.

I have nothing against immigrants in Belgium, i think they can help us and can revitalize our society. Most immigrants are dynamic people and without immgration there would be a totally different USA, Canada and Australia.

Since 1989 the EU has become more and more like the United Nations: it's too big and it's not decisive enough.

A sign on the wall is Turkey's stance towards the EU.
Until roughly 10 years ago, Turkey desperately wanted to become a EU member.
Now they coudn't care less and concentrate on the a union with countries in central Asia (mostly former Soviet Republics and very wealthy countries due to their natural resources).
There is a fantastic book about this region: "The Silk Routes" by Peter Frankopan. It's perhaps the most important book i've read the last years.

 

[sauce]

Read some stuff and saw some point of views, the xenophobia and stuff are apparently uninformed people riding the movement. No surprise though, those a-holes are usually cowards that ride other people agenda.

But now that I know both sides I can confirm its a tough decision to make, but still think maybe it could have been resolved in another way.

 

[Chris Davies]

21th century society is very complicated....

Absolutely, and it's only going to get worse.

Consider how divided America is at the minute, right down the middle between pro-Trump and anti-Trump (he's such a big headline that it's not even about the actual political race, Democrat v Republican, any more).

320 million people, split pretty evenly, between "let's build a wall and protect ourselves from all those Mexican rapists with our guns", and "let's not give those who seek to terrorise us the response they're looking for, and make this world an even scarier place to be".

This split is incredibly similar, when you see the "leave" arguments - particularly UKIP's, and let's not forget they're the driving force behind this (being the "independence party" and all - and at the last election, they were voted for in the millions).

There were lots of scary infographics flying around on social media about how much money we send abroad, with absolutely no sources to back it up, and a tagline of "the government don't want you to see this - share it now before they take it down". Which, of course, is bullshit, but fear is an incredibly powerful tool in the modern world, and fear is winning.

We're all scared, that's the bottom line - the threat of terrorism seemingly grows stronger all the time - but we've now got hard evidence that 50% of the UK is at odds with the other 50%, with half of us prioritising union and financial stability, and the other half voting out of fear* to cut immigration, who then talk about how brave they are (and what makes me laugh is that section of Brits who are vocal about how the country has been ruined by immigration, who are voicing this opinion from the countries they themselves emigrated to years ago - Spain, Italy, Australia...).

*I understand that not every "leave" vote was out of fear, but the evidence that it was a large portion of those votes is plentiful. YouGov's poll looking at the ages of the voters show that the majority under the age of 50 voted to remain, with the majority over 50 voting to exit, and that upper age-range makes up the VAST majority of UKIP voters, who aren't just an anti-EU party, they're a bunch of racists whose propaganda is (fairly) compared to Nazi propaganda on a regular basis, preying on the fears of the public, particularly the elderly.

The idea that we pay £320m to the EU every week, that the "leave" movement has been pushing since day one (and claiming to put back into the NHS should we not have to spend it any longer - a claim coming from the same government that is openly dismantling it), has long since been debunked. Several experts put it at £190m, which is considered pretty close to what we'll have to pay to continue to trade with Europe anyway - and Michael Gove, who set out to destroy our education system from the inside (and I say this as someone who knows the profession), who is now the "leave" initiative's co-leader (along with Boris Johnson, who two years ago answered the question "would you remain in the EU" on camera with "yes, absolutely, there are many benefits to the arrangement", but has simply spotted his opportunity to oust David Cameron and become Prime Minister as of this year), swatted all of these facts aside with the phrase "I think the public has had enough of experts from places with long abbreviations telling them what will happen".

Because the last people we should listen to are experts, right? With all their fancy words. They're all in with the elite, they all want their money and they don't get their money unless we do what they say.

That's the overwhelming attitude of "out" voters - again, Gerd, in my experience. There will be plenty with more intelligence, and some of them have posted above, and I have no problem with people knowing the facts and voting to leave, honestly.

What I DO have a problem with, is this. The "leave" vote won by 52%.

I promise you - more than 2% of those "leave" votes will have been based on fear and racism, propagated by media outlets like The Sun, ran by Rupert Murdoch, who is the epitome of "the elite", who is ruling this country by proxy. And it's because of these voters that the FTSE has crashed, the GBP has dropped to new lows, and that we are entering this new, uncertain age, for - in my opinion - absolutely no fucking reason.

 

[Godotelli]

If they had given the UK a few concessions it would never have come to this. Cameron's fruitless trip to Brussels last year only demonstrates how little influence we have in the EU despite being a major financial contributor and the world's fifth largest economy.

People have had enough. They see that we have no influence, no control, and the British people have spoken. I blame the EU for this above all else. They had the power to stop this.

I take no happines or pleasure in this referendum result. It's a sad day for the UK and Europe, but in the long-term I think the UK will be better off for it. There's a good chance the EU will collapse under its own weight anyway, what with so many economies teetering on the brink (Spain, Italy, Greece, Portugal) and it's eastward expansion into poorer nations.

The Euro meant that we'd have to leave at some point imo. The Eurozone, if it's to survive in its current form, needs further integration. Everything they do then would have to be seen through 'The Euro' glasses.

safeguard our economy and because a union is better for humanity

An undemocratic union isn't better for humanity.

On the economy, short term there will be bumps but longer term we'll be better off.

What this referendum has shown is that there's a massive divide in Britain - with age playing a large factor in that - between those who think immigrants are coming to claim our benefits, take our jobs and blow us up all at the same time, and those who aren't racist.

That attitude is why you lost.

Our National Health Service was already, pre-referendum, being pushed towards privatisation, and the promise from the "leave" campaign was that without being in the EU, there would be £300m+ savings that the NHS will benefit from. Already, Nigel Farage - leader of UKIP, who are the multiple-person form of Donald Trump - has backtracked on this and said that might not be right. That's within 12 hours of the result becoming known.

False. Like a lot of Remainers today, you haven't paid attention. Farage was not part of the official @vote_leave campaign.

 

[sauce]

Absolutely, and it's only going to get worse.

Consider how divided America is at the minute, right down the middle between pro-Trump and anti-Trump (he's such a big headline that it's not even about the actual political race, Democrat v Republican, any more).

320 million people, split pretty evenly, between "let's build a wall and protect ourselves from all those Mexican rapists with our guns", and "let's not give those who seek to terrorise us the response they're looking for, and make this world an even scarier place to be".

This split is incredibly similar, when you see the "leave" arguments - particularly UKIP's, and let's not forget they're the driving force behind this (being the "independence party" and all - and at the last election, they were voted for in the millions).

There were lots of scary infographics flying around on social media about how much money we send abroad, with absolutely no sources to back it up, and a tagline of "the government don't want you to see this - share it now before they take it down". Which, of course, is bullshit, but fear is an incredibly powerful tool in the modern world, and fear is winning.

We're all scared, that's the bottom line - the threat of terrorism seemingly grows stronger all the time - but we've now got hard evidence that 50% of the UK is at odds with the other 50%, with half of us prioritising union and financial stability, and the other half voting out of fear* to cut immigration, who then talk about how brave they are (and what makes me laugh is that section of Brits who are vocal about how the country has been ruined by immigration, who are voicing this opinion from the countries they themselves emigrated to years ago - Spain, Italy, Australia...).

Same thing is happening in Brazil, been happening ever since those confederations cup mess. Been happening in a lot of south america countries, USA and Europe too.

It is SHOCKING how information often backfires, while I'd say it is the thing that is saving us (good ideas being spread around), at the same time is the thing that is dooming us with the hate spread and misinformation, fake news spread so easily these days.

And honestly I don't know who is winning right now, several countries are going conservative, but at the same time young people are getting way way smarter. I still have hope for a distant future, maybe the near future is scary, but in the end I still think we will get this figured out.

 

[Chris Davies]

On the economy, short term there will be bumps but longer term we'll be better off.

Oh I'm sorry, are you one of the overwhelming consensus of economists who are educated enough to predict our financial future? I'm glad you're a member of the forum, they're talking about PES v FIFA sales in the PES section at the minute, you might be able to help them out.

That attitude is why you lost.

Because it was all about the winning or losing wasn't it - great attitude to have, certainly better than my "listen to the experts" and "here's some facts to back up what I'm saying" attitude, you're right.

This is why I don't get involved in the debate other than stating my opinion, and trying to back it up with facts where I can. It gets petty pretty quickly, and I'm only responding because you've singled out my quotes.

Gerd asked, I answered, I gave my opinion.

 

[Jamezinho]

The same 'expert' economists that failed so badly with the last financial crash?

 

[gomito#10]

Absolutely, and it's only going to get worse.

Consider how divided America is at the minute, right down the middle between pro-Trump and anti-Trump (he's such a big headline that it's not even about the actual political race, Democrat v Republican, any more).

320 million people, split pretty evenly, between "let's build a wall and protect ourselves from all those Mexican rapists with our guns", and "let's not give those who seek to terrorise us the response they're looking for, and make this world an even scarier place to be".

This split is incredibly similar, when you see the "leave" arguments - particularly UKIP's, and let's not forget they're the driving force behind this (being the "independence party" and all - and at the last election, they were voted for in the millions).

There were lots of scary infographics flying around on social media about how much money we send abroad, with absolutely no sources to back it up, and a tagline of "the government don't want you to see this - share it now before they take it down". Which, of course, is bullshit, but fear is an incredibly powerful tool in the modern world, and fear is winning.

We're all scared, that's the bottom line - the threat of terrorism seemingly grows stronger all the time - but we've now got hard evidence that 50% of the UK is at odds with the other 50%, with half of us prioritising union and financial stability, and the other half voting out of fear* to cut immigration, who then talk about how brave they are (and what makes me laugh is that section of Brits who are vocal about how the country has been ruined by immigration, who are voicing this opinion from the countries they themselves emigrated to years ago - Spain, Italy, Australia...).

*I understand that not every "leave" vote was out of fear, but the evidence that it was a large portion of those votes is plentiful. YouGov's poll looking at the ages of the voters show that the majority under the age of 50 voted to remain, with the majority over 50 voting to exit, and that upper age-range makes up the VAST majority of UKIP voters, who aren't just an anti-EU party, they're a bunch of racists whose propaganda is (fairly) compared to Nazi propaganda on a regular basis, preying on the fears of the public, particularly the elderly.

The idea that we pay £320m to the EU every week, that the "leave" movement has been pushing since day one (and claiming to put back into the NHS should we not have to spend it any longer - a claim coming from the same government that is openly dismantling it), has long since been debunked. Several experts put it at £190m, which is considered pretty close to what we'll have to pay to continue to trade with Europe anyway - and Michael Gove, who set out to destroy our education system from the inside (and I say this as someone who knows the profession), who is now the "leave" initiative's co-leader (along with Boris Johnson, who two years ago answered the question "would you remain in the EU" on camera with "yes, absolutely, there are many benefits to the arrangement", but has simply spotted his opportunity to oust David Cameron and become Prime Minister as of this year), swatted all of these facts aside with the phrase "I think the public has had enough of experts from places with long abbreviations telling them what will happen".

Because the last people we should listen to are experts, right? With all their fancy words. They're all in with the elite, they all want their money and they don't get their money unless we do what they say.

That's the overwhelming attitude of "out" voters - again, Gerd, in my experience. There will be plenty with more intelligence, and some of them have posted above, and I have no problem with people knowing the facts and voting to leave, honestly.

What I DO have a problem with, is this. The "leave" vote won by 52%.

I promise you - more than 2% of those "leave" votes will have been based on fear and racism, propagated by media outlets like The Sun, ran by Rupert Murdoch, who is the epitome of "the elite", who is ruling this country by proxy. And it's because of these voters that the FTSE has crashed, the GBP has dropped to new lows, and that we are entering this new, uncertain age, for - in my opinion - absolutely no fucking reason.

i think your misunderstanding what is going on here. It is clearly not a split. If the election were held today, Trump would lose in a massive landslide not seen in decades..

 

[Chris Davies]

The same 'expert' economists that failed so badly with the last financial crash?

Are they? Have you looked into the names in that article and linked them up to the last financial crash? That was quick - I take it back, then.

More to the point - your argument is, the experts were wrong, so let's listen to... The non-experts? Let's leave the EU because we'll save money, according to politicians with no financial experience by-and-large riding the wave of UKIP-fuelled hysteria looking to further their political career? Happy to dig out the video of Boris Johnson saying the EU is great from a couple of years ago.

Again, not trying to make it personal, I do see your point. We don't know what happens next, but if there's a chance it'll be worse - and the FTSE/GBP have already plunged - then, to me, it's the equivalent of chopping off an ear because it might make your headaches go away. Experts predict it won't help, but who really knows. Chop! I hope I'm wrong.

i think your misunderstanding what is going on here. It is clearly not a split. If the election were held today, Trump would lose in a massive landslide not seen in decades..

That's not the impression I get from our news networks, but you live there, so I hope you're right. The sentiment is similar, though, was my point - there's a lot of bitterness on both sides because it's a black-and-white divide with little common ground. Hopefully we don't see crowd trouble at our leave/remain events like we see outside of Trump rallies.

 

[gomito#10]

Are they? Have you looked into the names in that article and linked them up to the last financial crash? That was quick - I take it back, then.

More to the point - your argument is, the experts were wrong, so let's listen to... The non-experts? Let's leave the EU because we'll save money, according to politicians with no financial experience by-and-large riding the wave of UKIP-fuelled hysteria looking to further their political career? Happy to dig out the video of Boris Johnson saying the EU is great from a couple of years ago.

Again, not trying to make it personal, I do see your point. We don't know what happens next, but if there's a chance it'll be worse - and the FTSE/GBP have already plunged - then, to me, it's the equivalent of chopping off an ear because it might make your headaches go away. Experts predict it won't help, but who really knows. Chop! I hope I'm wrong.


That's not the impression I get from our news networks, but you live there, so I hope you're right. The sentiment is similar, though, was my point - there's a lot of bitterness on both sides because it's a black-and-white divide with little common ground. Hopefully we don't see crowd trouble at our leave/remain events like we see outside of Trump rallies.

polling and out electoral college are two very different things...

 

[Jamezinho]

The point is, Chris, nobody really knows what will happen in the future, whether we decided to stay or go. The economists don't know for sure.

Staying in isn't necessarily a safer option when you look at the volatility of the union. If a larger nation like Spain or Italy needs a bail-out loan then the whole thing will come crashing down at some point taking everybody with it. Germany cannot afford to prop up the whole thing.

Some EU countries have 25-50% youth unemployment. A whole generation faces a bleak future in places like Spain and Greece, so quite why the more 'enlightened', 'intelligent' youth see the whole EU project as a good thing is beyond me.

 

[Chris Davies]

Some EU countries have 25-50% youth unemployment. A whole generation faces a bleak future in places like Spain and Greece, so quite why the more 'enlightened', 'intelligent' youth see the whole EU project as a good thing is beyond me.

I think it's less about being more "enlightened" and more because, rather than sharing a feeling of "let's bail a sinking ship that we can't all agree is sinking", they share a feeling of "if we're all in it together we won't have to face any unforeseen future financial ruin alone, and neither will anyone else", even though that's optimistic and not exactly guaranteed.

I entirely respect your opinion because you have easily justified it, but, I remember reading a tweet shortly after the general election along the lines of "we had the opportunity to vote for ourselves (i.e. Tory), or vote for each-other (i.e. Labour)", and the referendum felt exactly the same to me, with the same result, albeit much tighter. For me, it's better to try and make something work for more people than just your own countrymen, and fail in good conscience.

But, it's done, and I can't see there being any backtracking from this, so as I say, I hope I'm wrong.

EDIT: Seeing as this forum is all about computer games, here's Miles Jacobson's view on how leaving the EU will affect Sports Interactive and Football Manager. I thought it was a pretty good read, though it's a few pages long:

Spoiler

Dear all,

I’ve been asked by a few people about how the EU referendum vote could affect us as a studio. Note that I’ve tried to be as impartial as possible below – I have my opinions on how I’m going to vote, but I’d never tell anyone else how they should, and there are other factors that affect many people away from the workplace that could affect their decisions.

Unfortunately both sides lobbying for votes have been using lots of hyperbole in their lobbying rather than dealing in facts. And both are claiming that they are dealing with facts. Which is confusing for everyone. The Leave campaign have been using a bunch of things that could potentially happen using very factual language, such as their “£350m for the health service” quote (which has even made a Conservative politician move from Leave to Remain this week), without explaining that if we gave £350m to the health service there would be no money for border control! The Remain campaign saying that property prices could drop by 18% is, in essence, true – but isn’t the most likely scenario.

The debate is also not helped by the Leave campaign essentially having little say on what the government would decide to do should a leave vote happen. Unless Mr.Cameron & Mr.Osbourne decided to stand down and the party voted Mr.Johnson & Mr.Gove to replace them. They have been clear when I’ve asked them direct questions that they aren’t policies, they are just ideas. They can’t be policies, because they aren’t the government. And that just adds to the confusion.

The truth is that, should we leave, no one really knows the effects, so facts are quite hard to come by. But I’ve tried to disseminate as much information below on what the effects are likely to be for us.

What do we know & how does it affect SI?

As a nation, it is claimed that we are spending £350m a week on the EU, as has been put on the Leave campaigns “battle bus”. But we also get much of that back in subsidies to help keep food prices down and investing in science, including research into curing diseases. That figure also doesn’t take into account the rebate we get. The most accurate figure I’ve seen is less than half the amount, at £161m a week - https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/ (this is a good site if you want to get past both sides' hyperbole).

Should the government decide, if we leave, to no longer mirror the subsidies that we currently use from the EU, then the cost of most basic food goods would go up. www.numbeo.com is a good site to check these out around the world – most basic goods in Norway are 50%-100% more expensive than in the UK (milk, bread, eggs, meat), and whilst the salaries in Norway are generally higher, so are basic rates of tax.

Leaving the EU, depending on the agreements we can make, will range between gaining £34bn (if the deal involves free movement of people and a unilateral free trade agreement – the first of which isn’t a policy of Leave, who want the borders shut, and European leaders have said the that unilateral free trade won’t be on the table) to a loss of £55bn a year (£1.05bn a week). http://openeurope.org.uk/intelligence/britain-and-the-eu/what-if-there-were-a-brexit/

If we vote to leave, it will take 2-10 years to sort out leaving. We could well actually leave in 2 years, but it would take a lot longer than that to sort out the laws that would be needed – there are tens of thousands of these. This would create a lot of jobs for a lot of lawyers – at a lot of cost. It will also cause chaos for the economy during this time – SI have over the last couple of years “lost” a seven figure sum due to exchange rate fluctuation and uncertainty, and these fluctuation will get worse if we vote to leave. You may remember that the SRP of the game actually went up on PC in Europe this year due to those changing exchange rates, but during our key sales period they went massively wobbly to an even larger degree - this makes it very hard for us to know the revenue coming in, or plan for the next versions of our games.

The exchange rates may steady out once everything is sorted out, but it’s unlikely that it will return to a point of good rates for us. This affects our revenues differently depending on the situation – but as it stands currently, sales outside the UK (which are over 50% of our sales) are making us a smaller return than a few years ago, even with the higher prices. And less revenue means less resources available for our games.

The exchange rate fluctuation would also hit our licensing costs. FIFPro is in Euros, as are most of our other deals. The MLS is in US dollars. So when the exchange rates change, so do the costs of the advances for the licenses.

Marketing budgets would also be hit by these exchange rate fluctuations for anything we do outside of the UK.

There seems to be agreement that if we were to leave the EU, the plan for immigration would be to have an Australian points system – but no work has been done at all on working out what that system will be. If it uses the current work permit system as a base, it would mean only being able to hire the most senior coders from outside the UK, rather than the flexibility we have now of being able to hire anyone inside the EU who is talented enough to join the team.

No one is able to yet state whether people from EU countries who currently don’t need work permits will be allowed to stay in the UK. That will depend on who is actually running the country. 20% of our current dev team are from EU countries that aren’t the UK. And, as we know, there is a huge skills gap in the UK for software developers which won’t be filled for at least 9 years when the crop of youngsters in the first year of coding being in schools come out of university - this skills gap makes it really hard to find people in the UK who can do the specialised roles we hire for.

Football wise, whilst not directly affecting us, the work permit system would come into place for EU nations. Which we worked out would mean 175 players at the top level in the UK wouldn’t have got work permits – including Payet and Kante. From a gameplay perspective that’s going to cause more than a few problems for people who play the game as British clubs.

Trade wise, digital goods will likely be unaffected (apart from the exchange rate fluctuations). FM box copies would also likely be unaffected as they are manufactured outside the UK – although we may have to find a way to manufacture the game in the UK for copies here to avoid import taxes for our own game which could lead to longer lead times in getting discs manufactured as there is very limited capacity for this in the UK, and ALL film, music & games companies will be trying to use that limited capacity. This could also lead to higher prices in the UK, as that demand with limited supply availability would likely push the cost price of making the DVD go up.

For people who travel from UK to Europe for business (or holidays), if we vote leave, and the EU do follow through with their threats to make the future relationship hard as an example to stop others from leaving, it’s likely you will need to get a visa to do so. And those living outside of the UK would likely need a visa to visit the UK. It could be more expensive for us a business for some of you who live outside of the UK as we’d need to find a way to pay you.

If we were to leave, there are a multitude of laws that would vanish that would affect us directly – piracy, data protection, intellectual property, human rights, climate change etc. Some of these could change for the better. Some of them for the worse. We just don’t know. What we do know is that some won’t be the highest priority of laws, so would likely take longer than the 2 year “exit plan” to sort out, leaving a longer period of flux and uncertainty.

If we leave, property prices will likely drop. Which is good for people who haven’t bought places, but not good for those who have mortgages already – their property will drop in value, interest rates will go up as inflation will go through the roof (should we not have trade agreements in place, which will take many years to achieve) so unless they’ve managed the situation already, will ( may ) lead to negative equity.

Those who rent could see rent reductions – but could also see the property they live in being sold as in the last property crash as landlords get into financial trouble due to the paragraph above.

It could be good for our negotiations for the office rent though as we can expect much smaller investment in the UK, and some companies will leave. These aren’t just idle threats being made – I’ve spoken to a number of companies whose head offices are here who would have little choice but to move their head office elsewhere in Europe and have a smaller team based here. And many of us saw the debate on TV the other night where the claim was made that a huge chunk of the pharmaceutical industry would have to move to be able to register drugs for EU compliance.

I’ve tried to be impartial with this mail and detail some facts. The truth is that I can’t say for sure how it would affect us as there are so many known unknowns.

Overall, whichever way you decide to vote is up to you. But please do vote.

Cheers,
Miles

SOURCE: LinkedIn

 

[Placebo]

I'm certainly glad I hold two passports that's for sure.

 

[gomito#10]

Does this also mean the epl is going to lose many players?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[gerd]

IMO the world hasn't come to terms with globalisation and with the giant tenchnological leaps that have caused the globalisation.
The point is that the traditional decision makers (i.e. governments) have lost their influence to the EU and even more so to the big corporations.

Sometimes i also think that democracy becomes a handicap, because more and more rulers need to take very quick decisions and this doensn't work in a democracy (not that i'm against democracy).

When i see what happened in my country after the bank crisis, i become rather desperate. In 2009 the Belgian government (i.e. we, the tax payer) had to help several banks. This has cost us billions of euro's. Now it transpires that some of those banks have continued to set up fraudulent constructions for their (rich and wealthy) clients to evade tax...
In Belgium it is possible that the same person sinks two different banks (bankrupt) in less than 5 years time. Five years ago their was outrage against the guy and now he's done it again. In the board of that second bank there were polticians who got tons of money (even last week after the bank went bankrupt) and did everything they would to 'protect' the bank from our national bank who acts a some sort of referee and was well aware that the bank was frauulent.

When people here these things they are disgusted and vote for extreme parties...

What worries me most is the fact that in Belgian the young people are afraid and vote for extreme right...

 

[gerd]

Does this also mean the epl is going to lose many players?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don't think so.
It will mean that it will be harder for new EU players to get a work permit.
To give you an examlple with Belgian players.

I don't think there will be any problem for Hazard, De Bruyne, Vertonghen and Fellaini.

Players like Meunier or Carrasco will have problems to get a work permit.

 

[ThomasGOAL]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0ktojE6WQA

 

[Damjan]

Farage is not responsible for that though.

 

[Placebo]

He's responsible for being a xenophobic fucktard with a face you want to accidentally trap in a car door repeatedly, though.

 

[Damjan]

That's your opinion. Plenty of Brits decided he isn't yesterday.

Xenophobic seems to be a very popular buzzword, just like racist.

 

[Godotelli]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0ktojE6WQA

Sexy Sue should know better.

Farage not part of vote_leave -the official campaign
Farage had previously suggested around £65m p/w (£3B p/a) could go towards the NHS

Vote_leave suggested around double that in their 'referendum manifesto' iirc. One could argue 1 of the posters could suggest £350m p/w on the NHS but the main 'battle bus' poster mentioned £350m but didn't state it'd all go towards NHS

 

[PIPA23]

That's your opinion. Plenty of Brits decided he isn't yesterday.

true, but that doesn´t mean they knew what they were doing actually..

this sums it up great for me: