Catholics and Protestants?

Chris Davies

Chris Davies

Chief PESsimist
Staff
14 May 2003
UK
Tranmere Rovers
Don't know if this thread will be deemed inappropriate or if it will start any arguments, but it was made with the best intentions with genuine questions in mind.

Basically, what's it all about? I watched Who Do You Think You Are recently (David Tennant's appearance on it), and it tried to explain it, but it got confusing and it's something that I was never taught about at school (surprisingly considering the fact that it still feels like it still exists). I'm 22 next week and I feel ashamed that there's subjects like this that I have no clue about.

Basically, all I picked up from the show, was that Ireland became a part of Great Britain (which was considered God knows which religion, I'm guessing Christian), but Northern Island (which I'm presuming housed more of one religion than the other) wasn't happy with this. The rivalry between Celtic and Rangers is billed as Catholic vs Protestant as well isn't it? How? Or is that something else?

I've had a look for websites going into more detail about it but I've not found out much to do with it so far, only deeply religious websites that don't talk about the history of the conflict.

Don't laugh, at least I'm trying to learn!
 
Probably you will get a free ride to banville, talking about Catholics and Protestants isn't great thing here, since last year I've got a ban from foxtrot just for wrote "Nice "Protestants'" kits" in an Glasgow Rangers FC kit set on Negromota's thread without any intention to descriminate/judge. :s
 
If im not mistaken, Ireland as a whole was a Catholic country. When the English wanted to expand their empire, they planted protestants in Ireland in order to spread their culture, but the catholics rebelled and managed to retain Northern Ireland, which is independent. Northern Ireland remains to be Catholic, with the Republic of Ireland remaining under British rule and being Protestant.
 
Milanista said:
If im not mistaken, Ireland as a whole was a Catholic country. When the English wanted to expand their empire, they planted protestants in Ireland in order to spread their culture, but the catholics rebelled and managed to retain Northern Ireland, which is independent. Northern Ireland remains to be Catholic, with the Republic of Ireland remaining under British rule and being Protestant.
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This sounds correct, other than the last bit being the other way around.
 
As I understand it, the schism is due to historical conflict/atrocities and not to a blind religious hatred of one another.

Britain conquering a nation that wanted to remain independant, forcing the newly conquered people to change their core beliefs (at the risk of forfeiture of life in instances), and general occupiers/insurgents good fun all around.
 
I am a protestant from Belfast(Northern Ireland) Just a few things to clear up.Northern ireland is under british rule,while ireland reframes from the u.k, Northern ireland is full of protestants and catholics But slightly more prodestants,if you ask a prodestant from n.i they will say they are bristish but if you ask a catholic they will say there irish even though they were born in a country under british rule.The ranger's celtic matter is a sensitive issue (i'm a ranger's fan)and i got to say lately celtic have been better and when these two meet there usually ends with a riot in belfast.
 
The black and tan British tied sticks around our necks and forced us to speak English, if we spoke Irish we would be spanked, thank God they got one thing right, without the British we wouldn't have ruled the world, we'd all be speaking Irish and just be kicked off the tailcoats of the US. This is the perfect thread for some rebel songs, hmm, let me see....Men Behind the Wire is a great one, personally I'm catholic and not really that involved in the whole conflict or the whole agenda, but i do find rebel songs quite hilarious to listen to. They are my fellow countrymen singing about pride and real issues but it's all very fidly idle doodle and the music is quite like the circus

THE MEN BEHIND THE WIRE

Armoured cars and tanks and guns
Came to take away our sons
But every man must stand behind
The men behind the wire

Through the little streets of Belfast
In the dark of early morn
British soldiers came marauding
Wrecking little homes with scorn

Heedless of the crying children
Cragging fathers from their beds
Beating sons while helpless mothers
Watched the blood poor from their heads

Not for them a judge and jury
Nor indeed a trial at all
But being Irish means you´re guilty
So we´re guilty one and all

Round the world the truth will echo
Cromwell´s men are here again
England´s name again is sullied
In the eyes of honest men.

Proud we march behind our banner
Firm we´ll stand behind our men
We will have them free to help us
Build a nation once again

On the people step together
Proudly firmly on their way
Never fear never falter
Till the boys are home to stay
 
Dermot this thread was not made for being sectarian it was made for a reason,so don't go spoiling it.
 
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I'll just let all you people who want to know a prodestant song:(since Dermot thought that this would be a good thread for rebal song's)(this is a loyalist one not a nationalist(rebal))

The Sash.

Here am I a Loyal Orangeman,

Just come across the sea,

For singing and for dancing,

I hope that I'll please thee,

I can sing and dance with any man,As I did in days of yore,

And on the Twelfth I long to wear,

The Sash My Father Wore,

It's old but it is beautiful,

It's colours they are fine,

It was worn at 'Derry, Aughrim, Enniskillen,

And the Boyne,

My father wore it as a youth,

In byegone days of yore,

So on the Twelfth I proudly wear,

The Sash My Father Wore.

It's now I'm going to leave you,

Good luck to you I say,

And when I'm on the ocean,

For me I hope you'll pray,

I'm going to my native home,

To a place they call Dromore,

Where on the Twelfth I always were,

The Sash My Father wore.

Whenever I come back again,

My Brethren here to see,

I hope in fine oul' Orange style,

They'll always welcome me,

My favourite tune 'Boyne Water',

Will please me more and more,

And make my Orange heart feel glad,

With the Sash My Father Wore.

King Billy's on the wall.

Well there's a famous painting that everybody knows,
It stands apon a gable wall over Sandy Row,
In memory of King William and brothers who did join,
They fought for our deliverence at the Battle Of The Boyne .
King Billy's on the wall,
King Billy's on the wall,
He stands so high,
He shines so bright,
He lights up the Falls.
There is millions come to see him,
They stand and gaze at awe,
They remember 1690 King Billy's on the wall.

There is slogans painted in red white and blue,
They tell the pope where he can go and what he can do,
Theres one for Gerard Rice, well that's a different class,
Go take the Lower Ormeau Road and stick it up your ass.
Now the next time your in Ulster won't you come and have a look,
Stand beside that mural and have your photo took,
Set it on the mantlepiece or hang it in the hall,
So the whole world can see King Billy's on the wall.
 
Gareth G said:
I am a protestant from Belfast(Northern Ireland) Just a few things to clear up.Northern ireland is under british rule,while ireland reframes from the u.k, Northern ireland is full of protestants and catholics But slightly more prodestants,if you ask a prodestant from n.i they will say they are bristish but if you ask a catholic they will say there irish even though they were born in a country under british rule.The ranger's celtic matter is a sensitive issue (i'm a ranger's fan)and i got to say lately celtic have been better and when these two meet there usually ends with a riot in belfast.
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I always thought that Great Britain was England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales - I didn't realise it was actually NORTHERN Ireland, and that Ireland was it's own country. Your post has been an education to me!

So I can understand why protestants consider themselves British, but why do catholics living in Northern Ireland consider themselves Irish, if Ireland and Northern Ireland are seperate?

As for the Celtic Rangers stuff... This one loses me entirely. Did the same happen in Scotland as in Ireland? How are Celtic and Rangers related, previously I thought the protestant and catholic issue was purely Irish? And why are there riots in Belfast when two Scottish teams play football?

Thanks for all of your input.
 
Jack Bauer said:
I always thought that Great Britain was England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales - I didn't realise it was actually NORTHERN Ireland, and that Ireland was it's own country. Your post has been an education to me!

So I can understand why protestants consider themselves British, but why do catholics living in Northern Ireland consider themselves Irish, if Ireland and Northern Ireland are seperate?

As for the Celtic Rangers stuff... This one loses me entirely. Did the same happen in Scotland as in Ireland? How are Celtic and Rangers related, previously I thought the protestant and catholic issue was purely Irish? And why are there riots in Belfast when two Scottish teams play football?

Thanks for all of your input.
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1.I am not sure why Catholic's that were born in Northern Ireland consider themselves Irish,even thought Northern Ireland is under british reign and they were born here.

2.Rangers - Celtic. rangers wear red white and blue which is the colours of the british flag(scotland is in britian) and celtic wear green and white and at there matches you always see green white and gold(ireland flag) and celtic are as about irish as i am :lol: it's a glasgow derby and rangers supporters are protestant and celtic are catholic.They riot because it is a religion thing in football.
 
In the past Ireland has been invaded by alot of different types. The country was inhabited by celts invaded by vikings then normans and so on. Most of them settled in Ireland and as the phrase goes became more Irish than the Irish themselves. the N. Ireland / Republic of Ireland divide came when the English who had invaded Ireland started plantations meaning people from england was given land that was taken off the Irish called a plantation. The english then charged the Irish to live on their own land. The owner of the plantation was the landlord and the Irish were the tennants. The Irish were basicly a type of slave to the English. People think that back then all the Irish grew was potatoes but in fact they also grew other crops but these crops had to be sold to be able to pay the rent. Even when the potato famine (1845 - 1849) came and the Irish were straving they still had to sell their other crops to pay for rent or they would be evicted. It was a lose lose situation. Much is unrecorded, and various estimates suggest that between 500,000 and more than one million people died in the five years from 1846 to 1851 as a result of hunger or disease. Some two million refugees are attributed to the Great Hunger (estimates vary), and much the same number of people emigrated to Great Britain, the United States, Canada, and Australia. The immediate effect on Ireland was devastating, and its long-term effects proved immense, permanently changing Irish culture and tradition. The Irish Potato Famine was the culmination of a social, political and economic catastrophe, caused by British factors. This plus penal laws like not allowing caholics to go to school (Children had to attend seceret schools called hedge schools which were basicly were children gathered in hidden places to learn basics like to read and write)all the in the end lead to civil war which went on for many years in which the Irish suffered greatly under british rule an in the end a treaty was signed in that Ireland was deemed a republic but still the britsish were given 6 of our counties which is now called N. Ireland.The reason Catholics in N. Ireland rightly call themselves Irish is because they belive that the English should have no rigthful claim over any part of our country Ireland. for the person that asked Catholics and Protestants? nearly all Irish are catholics and most of the British in thr north are not.
 
Matty_17 said:
Stupid really. A load of Prods don't even have the foggiest notion of what they're supporting.

I'm a prod, by the way.
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what do you mean????
 
you know as i do both sides are the same (even though the gers r shite:lol: )
 
Matty_17 said:
Thats a poor show from you.

Come on the Glens!

Come on the Gers!

Come on Chelsea!

\\:o/
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we all know that the gers r shite this year evn though i support them, u don't support that many good teams them.

Mon the blues."grand slam champions"
 
Yes i did i go to all the home matches:D Vey good result, it's just we need to be a bit more realistic,teams like sweden, denmark and spain we need to keep up are performaces of late and something can hopefully happen. did you go?
 
Gareth G said:
1.I am not sure why Catholic's that were born in Northern Ireland consider themselves Irish,even thought Northern Ireland is under british reign and they were born here.
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You are incorrect, Northern Ireland is not entirely under British rule, 6 of the 9 counties there are. The reason why Catholics born within those 6 counties under British rule call themselves Irish is in my opinion purely patriotic or political. They are of the belief that Ireland was once it's own land before it got taken over and that it is their divine right that it should be given back to them. It's a pity people have to fight, I've never got invloved in much of it myself, at this point I think the majority of people want peace or some kind of peaceful solution but at the same time it is something that is present in your life as an Irishman and you just can't turn your back on it, you have to be aware of it. For instance, imagine if all of a sudden you are sitting at home and the next day Lancashire and Derbyshire are taken over by the Spaniards, bullrings go up and everyone starts taking siestas at 3 o clock in the day. Your country has lost some of its identity then, right? As a member of your nations community of course you are going to have to interact with that, you had no choice, you were just born into it. So that's why I'm of the opinion that it shouldn't be a fight between the people because we are all always born into different situations and pride will always get in the way, so that's why I pray that a peaceful solution can be worked out and both sides can live in harmony in a way that suits everybody.
 
Dermot said:
You are incorrect, Northern Ireland is not entirely under British rule, 6 of the 9 counties there are. The reason why Catholics born within those 6 counties under British rule call themselves Irish is in my opinion purely patriotic or political. They are of the belief that Ireland was once it's own land before it got taken over and that it is their divine right that it should be given back to them. It's a pity people have to fight, I've never got invloved in much of it myself, at this point I think the majority of people want peace or some kind of peaceful solution but at the same time it is something that is present in your life as an Irishman and you just can't turn your back on it, you have to be aware of it. For instance, imagine if all of a sudden you are sitting at home and the next day Lancashire and Derbyshire are taken over by the Spaniards, bullrings go up and everyone starts taking siestas at 3 o clock in the day. Your country has lost some of its identity then, right? As a member of your nations community of course you are going to have to interact with that, you had no choice, you were just born into it. So that's why I'm of the opinion that it shouldn't be a fight between the people because we are all always born into different situations and pride will always get in the way, so that's why I pray that a peaceful solution can be worked out and both sides can live in harmony in a way that suits everybody.
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the bit in red is why they believe they are irish.Your right it is just something that you were born into and made to believe in.

Edit: I am not wrong, northern ireland is under british rule.
 
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Ten out of ten for a serious comment Dermot!! :thumbup: In all seriousness, I enjoyed reading that, thanks. How long did you live in Ireland (or was it Northern Ireland) for?

For everyone who's replied living in Ireland/Northern Ireland (or having lived there at some point), what are your experiences of all this, has it directly affected you in any way or do you hardly have to think about it? Have your parents been totally anti-catholic/protestant or are they open-minded? Were they involved in any marches (or, God forbid, Bloody Sunday)?

Panthera1, thank you for your contribution, that was exactly what I wanted to know, the history of it all. It makes for very interesting reading, I had no idea about 99% of what you said. The only thing I was taught at school relating to anything you said is about the potato famine, and even then it was more "remember this date and the name potato famine" than "this is what happened". The show I watched (well, the one from three or four weeks ago actually) mentioned the potato famine and it was interesting - well, more horrifying than interesting - to hear about.

I'm still not quite with it regarding Celtic and Rangers though, I don't understand what their connection is to all this. And also, I've never seen "protestant" written as "prodestant" or "prod" - what's that all about?

Cheers for the history lesson guys, it makes a fantastic read.
 
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This page might help with the Celtic/Ireland thing, this part in particular:

The Irish-Scots were instrumental in the formation of Celtic Football Club, Hibernian F.C., and Dundee United F.C. (which was originally known as Dundee Harp). Indeed, these teams were originally formed to provide recreational facilities for the Irish immigrants. At first, these teams faced discrimination from the football authorities, and there was controversy over whether their players should be picked to play in international games, especially against the Irish international team.
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The Rangers/Northern Ireland thing, I have no clue.
 
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Yeah Jay you're right, the Celtic/Irish connection is actually quite strong as it was founded and had extremely strong Irish connections from its inception. People that dont understand the connection between the Irish and Celtic just dont know the history. :)

Also Gareth, I think you'll find that in the last few years, the split is very close to 50-50 between Catholics and Protestants in the North, the Protestants dont have much (if any) of a majority anymore.
 
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