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Diving

Sulph

Goodbye...
28 September 2003
We have all seen diving occur in matches, and it makes us sick. Just last night when Ballack fell to the ground and won himself a penalty, and created a lifeline for Bayern. It really saddens me to see that nothing has been done to limit it. What are your opinions on what FIFA, UEFA or individual FA's should to crack down on divers?
 

Professor Nutmeg

ML Fanatic
3 July 2002
Master League
Tough one to call. Yes i believe players should be punished. However, if a player is punished during a game, the ref has to be 100% sure (in-match video evidence?) It is good to see when refs get it right though, eg Xavi cautioned for Barca. If a player is punished after a game, through normal video evidence, it won't change the result of the game, (eg a player dives and wins a penalty to equalise/win), but the player could get a suspension. Not much good in a cup final. Perhaps post-match video evidence is easier to call, so maybe hefty 2/3 match suspensions could be handed out. Nonetheless it would be a nightmare, i'm sure, with it happening so often nowadays, plus appeals etc, blah blah blah.
 

fishcake

Premiership
1 January 2003
L4
all diving and cheating should be wiped from the game, only way is for fifa to give officials the power to show red cards for blatant cheating and also the power to punish unseen incidents afterwards, maybe then players will realise it's not worth the risk trying to con referees

it's funny though how a chelsea fan is moaning about it when it's happened to them, joe cole and drogba were going down like they'd been shot in the carling cup final and i didn't hear any moaning about it then :roll: , same when valdez was pulled back for terry to score the winner against barca, double standards if you ask me
 
S

smango

Guest
Ballack won a deserved penalty in my book. And too boot it makes the return leg an actual contest, good for those netural fans and bayern fans alike, the only people complaining are Chelsea.
 

gerd

Retired Footballer
8 January 2002
Over the moon
KRC Genk, Spurs
Come on smango... i'm not a Chelsea fan but i condemn what Ballack did.
Forget the Barcelona match and the final of the League Cup. Forget Chelsea.
I agree 100% with the Prof on this one.
But as much as i dislike diving. I don't like the way some people reason over here: Porto won the CL and the UEFA Cup last year because they were diving. Porto won those cup because they were the best team and (partially) because teams like Celtic and Man utd were not versatile enough to adapt there fysical way of playing. The way British teams play invites those Southern Europe teams to dive...
In a way their cheating shows that those British teams (and managers???) are immature.
 

fd1972uk

---------------------
9 January 2002
Glasgow
Celtic
Sulph - Joe Cole is a diving little git and Drogba did the same thing earlier in the game when someone brushed a hand off him and he fired over the bar.

Diving is rife all over the place, however it's not going to stop and no-one can slag off another player/team without having to admit that their own players do it themselves.


FD
 
M

miska

Guest
Wasnt the penalty awarded for a hand ball, which happened after Ballack "dived" ?
If you can watch the replay again, I think it was pretty obvious. Stupid tho :)
 

crayon

Champions League
23 October 2004
Japan
Liverpool FC
What's the most ridiculous dive you've ever seen? Mine have to be:1)Michael Owen against Argentina in 2002 (such an unnatural tumble has never been seen) and 2)Rooney against Arsenal clearly taking a jump in thin air earlier this season. That's only English football, mind, no favouritism or victimisation. Just the footy I've seen..:D
 

gerd

Retired Footballer
8 January 2002
Over the moon
KRC Genk, Spurs
Leviathan about the supposed off-side from the first goal.
That was certainly not an off-side.
I watched the game on the Belgian television and one of the pundits was referee De Bleeckere (the man who refereed Liverpool-Juventus the day before). When asked about that goal he said Drogba was in an off-side position but since he did not participate in the game and made no move for the ball, according to the rules that can not be considered as off-side. I think this guy know what he's talking about since he's a referee who "does" CL matches...
Anyway this thread isn't about Chelsea-Bayern Munich but about diving in general...
I know that German football is known for it's "clever players" (the German national team won a world cup with a dive, in Italy in 1990)...but then as a neutral football fan i always prefer the way British teams play: open and perhaps naïve.
Diving is not only cheating, but it kills the game...so it has to stop.
 

Ike

permaninizated
18 March 2003
gerd said:
Leviathan about the supposed off-side from the first goal.
That was certainly not an off-side.
I watched the game on the Belgian television and one of the pundits was referee De Bleeckere (the man who refereed Liverpool-Juventus the day before). When asked about that goal he said Drogba was in an off-side position but since he did not participate in the game and made no move for the ball, according to the rules that can not be considered as off-side.
I didn't study the rules, but as far as I know it can also be offside if the goalkeeper is distracted by that player, eg. can't view the ball. I agree it was not offside though, and Kahn admitted too that he wasn't distracted by Drogba.

I know that German football is known for it's "clever players" (the German national team won a world cup with a dive, in Italy in 1990)...
No way.

Anyways, as long as dining isn't punished properly, players will keep doing it. The prof said it all, punishment in-game only make sense if you can be 100% sure, and that's not going to happen. Post-match bans would probably be the only way.
 

gerd

Retired Footballer
8 January 2002
Over the moon
KRC Genk, Spurs
Ok Ike let's agree to disagree on that WC final in Italy.
I partially agree with you on what you said about position off-side. That question was also asked to De Bleeckere. He claimed that in the case of Drogba there was (for him)no distraction (which Kahn admitted too).
He said that the rules leave this open for interpration of referees and (in the case of Chelsea's goal) of linesmen.
 

donEdo

Conference
3 October 2004
gerd said:
Leviathan about the supposed off-side from the first goal.
That was certainly not an off-side.
I watched the game on the Belgian television and one of the pundits was referee De Bleeckere (the man who refereed Liverpool-Juventus the day before). When asked about that goal he said Drogba was in an off-side position but since he did not participate in the game and made no move for the ball, according to the rules that can not be considered as off-side. I think this guy know what he's talking about since he's a referee who "does" CL matches...
Anyway this thread isn't about Chelsea-Bayern Munich but about diving in general...
I know that German football is known for it's "clever players" (the German national team won a world cup with a dive, in Italy in 1990)...but then as a neutral football fan i always prefer the way British teams play: open and perhaps naïve.
Diving is not only cheating, but it kills the game...so it has to stop.
That was an offside, he did participate in the game cause the ball was going in Drogba's direction and he was standing right in front of Kahn and in his sightfield so he couldn't see the ball.
According to the rules it's enough if the ball goes in the same direction where the player is standing at the moment to be an offside.
I think some referee's would say it was an offside and some don't. IMO it was an offside.
 

ClassicD

Galáctico
11 November 2001
Glasgow
Celtic
Ballack made a meal of it, he was tugged backwards and yet somehow fell fowards, however anyone who says his shirt wasn't pulled is blind.

What is amusing is that Sulph felt the need to create a thread for diving after this incident, yet ignores the fact members of his own team do it (as has been mentioned).

Gerd, as for Porto, no one is suggesting they won purely by those tactics, but I strongly disagree that it's the fault of the opposition that fouls were given. It got to a stage you couldn't even make any kind of tackle without them falling over - that behaviour is what should change, not the mindset of opposition players with regards to tackling. I have a feeling we will have to agree to disagree on this matter.
 

fd1972uk

---------------------
9 January 2002
Glasgow
Celtic
Yep I have to admit Gerd, you kinda don't make sense, by saying how diving should be acted upon harshly and then in other terms how British teams should play the same way as like they are to blame.


FD
 

Nickybaker

You want SEVEN?
15 October 2003
Essex
The one and only Arsenal
fd1972uk said:
Sulph - Joe Cole is a diving little git and Drogba did the same thing earlier in the game when someone brushed a hand off him and he fired over the bar.

Diving is rife all over the place, however it's not going to stop and no-one can slag off another player/team without having to admit that their own players do it themselves.


FD
Exacly FD. If managers and players critiscised there own for diving and others followed suit it might just help but Uefa will never do anything if the ref doesn't see it.

Let's be honest if a player from your team takes a dive do you scream and claim a foul for the other team. Nope didn't think so

A one game ban for diving would eliminate but you'd end up getting bans when maybe players haven't dived and can you imagine the number of appeals against a decision!!!!!
 

RuneEdge

Silent Assassin
1 October 2003
Manchester United
The most important point is what Professor Nutmeg said about how it affects the result.
If someone dived and gained a penatly which won the game, punishing the player wont change the result. If Ballack dived in a European Cup final, I'm sure him and the club would accept any punishment cuz it isn't gonna change the result.
Something needs to be done at the moment the player dives.
I personally think we need more linesmen to cover more of the pitch. And also have refs behind both goal nets so that "Carroll" blunders dont happen again either.
 

Nickybaker

You want SEVEN?
15 October 2003
Essex
The one and only Arsenal
RuneEdge said:
I personally think we need more linesmen to cover more of the pitch. And also have refs behind both goal nets so that "Carroll" blunders dont happen again either.
But that all costs! The lower league wouldn't be able to afford it so would you only give that luxury to the wealthy?

I also read in David Ellery's autobiography (Xmas pressie from mum-in-law to be, I'm not that sad) that most ref's only like the lino's to flag if they think the ref has missed an incident. If this is the case more linesman wont maake a difference because diving only works if the ref sees the incident.
 
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ClassicD

Galáctico
11 November 2001
Glasgow
Celtic
One of the worst things is when a referee realises a player has dived, motions that this is the case, but then doesn't book the player.
 

Sulph

Goodbye...
28 September 2003
Leviathan said:
Poetic justice. Your first goal was offside, so stop crying.
Im not fucking crying you fuckface. Im not even talking about Chelsea, im talking about how diving ruins the game, and how bans should be imposed on divers. Get your fucking facts straight.

And FD, once again, I did not say that JC or Didier don't/did'nt dive. Once again I am not on anyones side here, bans should be imposed on all divers.

Cant even get a fucking point across on these forums - freaking idiots.
 

ClassicD

Galáctico
11 November 2001
Glasgow
Celtic
lol, calling someone a fuckface then everyone else idiots, comedy at it's finest.

Chill out, it's nothing to get stressed over.
 

Leviathan

Conference
22 December 2001
Germany
Sulph said:
Im not fucking crying you fuckface. Im not even talking about Chelsea, im talking about how diving ruins the game, and how bans should be imposed on divers. Get your fucking facts straight.

And FD, once again, I did not say that JC or Didier don't/did'nt dive. Once again I am not on anyones side here, bans should be imposed on all divers.

Cant even get a fucking point across on these forums - freaking idiots.
Congrats.

Besides: You just opened this thread because Ballack dived (in your opinion). Would you really have wrote something if Sheva or anybody else dived in the Milan-game?

I think everybody agrees in what you're saying about diving, but could you please answer the next time without any "fuck", "fuckface" oder "idiot". Thanks.
 

Milanista

Mangiamoli!
Staff
19 December 2002
London & Milan
AC Milan
wow chill..... there was no thread open when Deco dived in the 2nd leg of Barca game because CHelsea were already through..... so theres no point of you calling everyone a fucker and idiot.
 

Oli

Gooner
1 September 2002
London
Arsenal
Stop crying like a girl. You're basically through anyway. If it was a Chelsea player, you'd be making excuses right about now. "Oh... Drogba just slipped on the dodgy grass" or "He was blatantly tugging his shirt" or "Carvalho's studs werent right. His bottom left hard soil stud caught one of the grass strands causing him to fall.. its perfectly legit". :roll:
 

Stan

Allez les Lionceaux !!!
12 September 2002
Classic and Fd, ah good!!! i really love this one. I'll try to make myself clear (keep in mind that i'm not a native English speaker).
1. yes, i don't like diving...in another thread i said that players should be banned for a couple of matches if video footage proves that they were diving. I think it's unfair and it stops the flow of a match. So it's not good for the spectacle that is a football match.
2. About Porto, Celtic and Man Utd. If you know that a team dives (Derlei, Deco) you avoid to give them opportunities to dive, so you play a less physical play (less tackling). If you don't you just give them opportunities to win fouls in strategic areas of the pitch (or even penalties)or you risk to have lots of yellow or red cards wich is a disadvantage for your team. Of course diving isn't fair, but since you know that opponents will get away with in most cases...is that the sensible thing to do???? I don't think so.

I think there is a difference in mentality between most continental football fans and you British. I'm quite sure that most of continental members of this forulm will agree with me but for some strange (at least to me) reason most British members don't agree with me. It must be cultural.
 

ClassicD

Galáctico
11 November 2001
Glasgow
Celtic
Gerd you are correct about the mentality. In the past I've had people say that my opinion is perhaps even racist, which is crazy, but the opinion is that in Latin-based leagues, it would seem diving and this kind of theatrical behaviour is widely evident. Spain, Italy, Portugal, Brasil, Argentina are the main culprits that I can say I have actually noticed. Maybe I haven't seen enough football from Germany, Scandinavia, Holland, etc, but in those countries and here in the UK/Ireland, it's just not anywhere near as widespread.

About your second point there. It's all very well to say this, but then what do you do, how do you defend? You have to tackle to defend, you have to take a risk now and then - football is a contact sport, you cannot just "not tackle".
 
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