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FIFA 17 News & Discussion Thread

curdstar

Premiership
19 September 2006
PES4 Partick Thistle
I really appreciate that post - thanks so much. I haven't wanted to give up the save, because it's rare that I'm so invested in FIFA.

Perhaps the defenders I've brought in just aren't good enough (they were all free transfers, but are twice as good as the previous defenders who - at best - had 60s for everything a defender needs).

Can I ask how you approach a tackle? Because:

  • If I hold X (pressure), I hit an invisible wall around the opponent.
  • If I press O (stab-tackle), I just start busting moves...
  • If I hold L2 (jockey), either I just slip either side of the opponent, or I'm too slow to catch him.
  • If I hold L2+R2 (running jockey), I still slip either side of him and no tackle appears to happen.

I also noticed the other day - first time I've ever seen it - that the "jockey" button also results in a tackle, according to the controls list in the pause menu (plus the "jump up after tackle" button):


So I'm a bit lost...
This why I think FIFA lacks realism: layers upon layers of commands and prompts for very simple, incredibly natural and instinctive actions, if we are comparing it to playing the sport.

I can never really articulate it in words properly, but when I play football I don't find myself having to think through my actions and motions: it is just me and who I am and what I am capable of. The better I got at playing the sport, the more instinctive things became, and I simply don't think layers and layers of button combinations replicates (more approximates) how a human approaches body movement, control, and execution. I'll only make a comparison to PES here in order to try illustrate why I think the developers of that game "get it" in certain regards.

Take "no touch" dribbling and feinting as an example. In FIFA there is a bespoke button for it; in PES 2018 it is mapped into players basic movement with the left stick. The approach in PES is far more relatable to doing such in real life in that you don't "think out", "engage" or require huge effort to simply shift your body to feint/adjust on the move effectively. In FIFA it is an instruction, a command, a thing that requires a very deliberate switch of input. That isn't how an average player, even at Sunday League level, would go about doing something as simple as that, and it really is an incredibly simple and incredibly frequent thing in the sport. Why? Because it is instinctive in literally everyone who plays football. Everyone. Even that massive over-weight centre-back you'll see playing a Sunday morning elevens match does it. Yes, some players are far better at others in doing it in tighter, more restrictive situations; some are definitely quicker and more creative with it than others, but absolutely everyone who plays the sport, no matter the level, does it as much as they do pass the ball. It is an entirely human thing to do, thus it being on another button, it being a "command" or "skill" to learn and memorise, runs completely counter to real life, because it is something every single person who has played the sport does, and with ridiculous frequency. It isn't something that requires learning, but it is something that one can learn to use more cleverly, more quickly, more creatively.

This is perhaps why the players in PES look more alive, more aware when in control, because these natural little feints, adjustments and movements are mapped in a far more believable way. Every user is doing it just like we all do in real life, regardless of "skill" as the execution isn't a skill, but how to do it well, effectively, with greater finesse and composure is.

The more buttons, the more you try to map actions via combinations of buttons, the less relatable the players are to humans; the closer they get to feeling like you are controlling a mechanical entity, not an organic one.
 
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Chris Davies

Chief PESsimist
Staff
14 May 2003
Tranmere Rovers
The more buttons, the more you try to map actions via combinations of buttons, the less relatable the players are to humans; the closer they get to feeling like you are controlling a mechanical entity, not an organic one.
I agree with your post, in theory - but you could say exactly the same thing about manual passing, yet that is referred to by the (deep breath) hardcore, as a "must".

In reality, as you just said, there are no thought structures that are conscious and audible in the mind. There's no stream of "apply 20% more power than usual, let's get the ball to feet ASAP, and make sure to watch out for the guy running in from his right". It's just kicking the ball to a guy.

Your skill decides whether you make a decent enough contact and judge it well enough. It's not overly complicated, and if you're good enough, it'll get there.

Just as, when it comes to defending, I'm not thinking, okay Chris, let's jockey this mother (I mean, just the term "jockey", that really doesn't sit well with me). I'm just, as you say, doing what comes naturally. (Using my stomach as a sort-of battering ram, like hitting them in the back with a sack full of gelatine.)

I think if you're going to have manual passing, then it goes hand-in-hand with manual (or "tactical", to use the EAism) tackling. It's all about having control.

A key reason for its existence is the frustration of just holding down X to pressure and get close to the ball (which, as you say, feels more natural), and your defender not being good enough, and thus failing miserably as the striker waltzes past. It occasionally doesn't feel fair, because there's nothing you could have done (the same reason we all cried for manual passing).

With FIFA's method, you can at least say it's your fault. You have full control. But I'm not saying I prefer it, because A) anything that subtracts from player attributes is something I'm against in theory, and B) that "full control" is still pretty useless when League Two strikers can dance past you like Ronaldo on Red Bull, twisting and turning their bodies to run through you in a genuinely freakish way (limbs twisting, legs overlapping each other and passing through each other).
 

Redhat

Premiership
16 June 2007
US
Manchester United
I really appreciate that post - thanks so much. I haven't wanted to give up the save, because it's rare that I'm so invested in FIFA.

Perhaps the defenders I've brought in just aren't good enough (they were all free transfers, but are twice as good as the previous defenders who - at best - had 60s for everything a defender needs).

Can I ask how you approach a tackle? Because:

  • If I hold X (pressure), I hit an invisible wall around the opponent.
  • If I press O (stab-tackle), I just start busting moves...
  • If I hold L2 (jockey), either I just slip either side of the opponent, or I'm too slow to catch him.
  • If I hold L2+R2 (running jockey), I still slip either side of him and no tackle appears to happen.

I also noticed the other day - first time I've ever seen it - that the "jockey" button also results in a tackle, according to the controls list in the pause menu (plus the "jump up after tackle" button):


So I'm a bit lost...
Sure, no problem. Don't feel bad, I constantly make errors while defending.

I'll preface by saying that in no way, shape, or form do I believe the balance (or lack thereof) of attacking and defending in FIFA is where it should be. In the last few iterations, it seems that players with the ball are far more nimble and agile than players without it which to me (unless the player in question is a top, top tier attacker or just extremely quick) shouldn't always be the case. I understand when attacking in real life there's unpredictability involved, so perhaps they're trying to recreate that in a contrived manner in FIFA. Either way, it can certainly be improved upon. This is why we all end up poking thin air as the player skips right past us, or why defenders feel like trucks at times.

Despite all of the imbalance, I still maintain that some defenders are vacuum cleaners while others are essentially useless.

Anywho, do I have any tips or tricks in regards to defending? Not in particular. It's funny, I play football games so often, but it if someone asks me what it is I exactly do with the controller in certain situations, sometimes I have no idea. I tend to be a bit more bold and risky when it comes to defending against the CPU than if I were playing against a person. I utilize slide tackles a lot. I think I tend to just "jockey" players until I feel like there's an opportune time to let go of LT/L2, hit that sprint button, and just clatter into them while simultaneously pushing B/O. Nothing fancy, but very effective in 17. I just watched a video where the devs say they've addressed that sort of approach to defending? I'll believe it when I see it.

Sure, there's a bit more nuance involved in terms of reading the danger areas, the opposition, etc. It's safe to assume we all know the basics of defending and this applies to every football game. Though, once the attacker starts to shield the ball, good fucking luck. That's where the force field comes into play. I just try to get close and pressure them and hope they don't turn me. It's a nightmare if they start holding the ball up like that in and around your 18 because there's little chance you'll knick the ball away. Sometimes you just have to allow them a bit of space, but obviously that can be dangerous as well. Needless to say, shielding is overpowered in 17 and I hope it's remedied for 18.
 
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josev

Conference
24 December 2013
This why I think FIFA lacks realism: layers upon layers of commands and prompts for very simple, incredibly natural and instinctive actions, if we are comparing it to playing the sport.

I can never really articulate it in words properly, but when I play football I don't find myself having to think through my actions and motions: it is just me and who I am and what I am capable of. The better I got at playing the sport, the more instinctive things became, and I simply don't think layers and layers of button combinations replicates (more approximates) how a human approaches body movement, control, and execution. I'll only make a comparison to PES here in order to try illustrate why I think the developers of that game "get it" in certain regards.

Take "no touch" dribbling and feinting as an example. In FIFA there is a bespoke button for it; in PES 2018 it is mapped into players basic movement with the left stick. The approach in PES is far more relatable to doing such in real life in that you don't "think out", "engage" or require huge effort to simply shift your body to feint/adjust on the move effectively. In FIFA it is an instruction, a command, a thing that requires a very deliberate switch of input. That isn't how an average player, even at Sunday League level, would go about doing something as simple as that, and it really is an incredibly simple and incredibly frequent thing in the sport. Why? Because it is instinctive in literally everyone who plays football. Everyone. Even that massive over-weight centre-back you'll see playing a Sunday morning elevens match does it. Yes, some players are far better at others in doing it in tighter, more restrictive situations; some are definitely quicker and more creative with it than others, but absolutely everyone who plays the sport, no matter the level, does it as much as they do pass the ball. It is an entirely human thing to do, thus it being on another button, it being a "command" or "skill" to learn and memorise, runs completely counter to real life, because it is something every single person who has played the sport does, and with ridiculous frequency. It isn't something that requires learning, but it is something that one can learn to use more cleverly, more quickly, more creatively.

This is perhaps why the players in PES look more alive, more aware when in control, because these natural little feints, adjustments and movements are mapped in a far more believable way. Every user is doing it just like we all do in real life, regardless of "skill" as the execution isn't a skill, but how to do it well, effectively, with greater finesse and composure is.

The more buttons, the more you try to map actions via combinations of buttons, the less relatable the players are to humans; the closer they get to feeling like you are controlling a mechanical entity, not an organic one.
what you say is something i can relate to, yet i don't understand how is it then you advocate for advanced shooting which is counterintuitive and doesn't fit that concept of simplicity, i mean in real life you just hit it with some power having a rough idea of where you want to place it depending on the amount of space and time you have which is a basic idea of assisted shooting. advanced shooting is too complicated and is
layers upon layers of commands and prompts for very simple, incredibly natural and instinctive actions
 

curdstar

Premiership
19 September 2006
PES4 Partick Thistle
what you say is something i can relate to, yet i don't understand how is it then you advocate for advanced shooting which is counterintuitive and doesn't fit that concept of simplicity, i mean in real life you just hit it with some power having a rough idea of where you want to place it depending on the amount of space and time you have which is a basic idea of assisted shooting. advanced shooting is too complicated and is
Liked because it is fair question and I will try answer it later.
 

Chuny

GFX MOD
Staff
11 December 2007
Buenos Aires, Argentina
This is huge and justifies my purchase of the PC version this year. If no progress had been made in regards to modding, I don't think I would have bought this on Origin.
+1
Neither FIFA nor PES are the same on PC without modding possibilities.
I honestly wouldn't buy either of them if each company made it impossible to patch/tweak.
 

Chris Davies

Chief PESsimist
Staff
14 May 2003
Tranmere Rovers
I think it's such a shame that EA haven't built on this game's direction - at least from an AI standpoint.

I've been having a bit of a retro month - in the last 14 days I've played TWELVE different PES and FIFA games from the past, and of all the FIFAs, this one stands out to me as the closest to something special. (Yes, even more so than pre-Frostbite FIFA 16.)

AI teams have to use build-up play to progress, and may even be accused of holding onto the ball too much (something the developers quoted when releasing 18 and 19 - which just goes to show you the kind of stupid feedback they listen to, and what they ignore).

But it's the first Frostbite FIFA, and yet the most solid-feeling. There's less of the crazy animation occurrences that blight 18 and 19. The pace isn't too fast, the ball physics are pretty good, the AI plays "properly" (even though, sadly, they all tend to play the same way) - three things I definitely can't say about 19 (until you use sliders, which breaks a few things).

I'm finishing off the story of Alex Hunter at the minute, which gives me a reason to play it and maybe continue it on 18 - but it's quite jarring to feel the difference in direction.

It's as if FIFA 08 -17 was the era of David Rutter and co. changing the game to a realistic direction, and 18+ is going to take us back to the bad old days of arcade "fun"...
 

El Pajaro

Championship
14 May 2008
17 isn't bad game at all. Actually I played it a lot when I bought it. Actually that reminds me to reinstall it back again and give it a shot.
 

Madmac79

Premiership
11 September 2006
I think it's such a shame that EA haven't built on this game's direction - at least from an AI standpoint.

I've been having a bit of a retro month - in the last 14 days I've played TWELVE different PES and FIFA games from the past, and of all the FIFAs, this one stands out to me as the closest to something special. (Yes, even more so than pre-Frostbite FIFA 16.)

AI teams have to use build-up play to progress, and may even be accused of holding onto the ball too much (something the developers quoted when releasing 18 and 19 - which just goes to show you the kind of stupid feedback they listen to, and what they ignore).

But it's the first Frostbite FIFA, and yet the most solid-feeling. There's less of the crazy animation occurrences that blight 18 and 19. The pace isn't too fast, the ball physics are pretty good, the AI plays "properly" (even though, sadly, they all tend to play the same way) - three things I definitely can't say about 19 (until you use sliders, which breaks a few things).

I'm finishing off the story of Alex Hunter at the minute, which gives me a reason to play it and maybe continue it on 18 - but it's quite jarring to feel the difference in direction.

It's as if FIFA 08 -17 was the era of David Rutter and co. changing the game to a realistic direction, and 18+ is going to take us back to the bad old days of arcade "fun"...
17 is perhaps the only Fifa in which I managed to play multiple seasons in career. Fun team building, fun gameplay. Not perfect, but very, very solid edition in my opinion (exactly like his same year Konami counterpart).

Might come back to it too sooner or later.
 

Chris Davies

Chief PESsimist
Staff
14 May 2003
Tranmere Rovers
Not perfect, but very, very solid edition in my opinion (exactly like his same year Konami counterpart).
Funny you say that, but that's exactly what I realised earlier - my favourite modern PES (after the last 2019 patch really spoilt it) is 2017, and my favourite modern FIFA is a toss-up between 2017 (I just wish the AI was more varied) and 2019 (which is really "unstable")!
 

rockstrongo

World Cup Winner
25 August 2006
Sweden
Hammarby
17 is perhaps the only Fifa in which I managed to play multiple seasons in career. Fun team building, fun gameplay. Not perfect, but very, very solid edition in my opinion (exactly like his same year Konami counterpart).

Might come back to it too sooner or later.
Gave my copy away (and Fifa 18) when I sold my console last November.
Re bought it yesterday for 7-8€.
Played a game on my old Gladbach save and it's a fun and great game.
The only Fifa i had 5+ seasons on (maybe 16 too)
 
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rockstrongo

World Cup Winner
25 August 2006
Sweden
Hammarby
Gave my old Borussia save a go last night,but even though I like the gameplay on 17,I can't see past that small ball.
Looks absolutely rubbish.
Good gameplay though
 

slamsoze

Champions League
28 September 2010
Gave my old Borussia save a go last night,but even though I like the gameplay on 17,I can't see past that small ball.
Looks absolutely rubbish.
Good gameplay though
I like FIFA 17 too, more than 2018 and 2019 but i am not deep in the FIFA experience, as i completely skipped the series from 2012 until 2016 so i am missing main chains in the series evolution.

Rock sorry for highjacking the post here, but as fas as i know and since you own a PS3 console, FIFA world cup 2010 and FIFA 2011 are considered two very solid games. I tried FIFA 11 in my PC and it plays really good for an old FIFA, the only problem is the lack of sliders, as the ball pass speed is too fast.
 

rockstrongo

World Cup Winner
25 August 2006
Sweden
Hammarby
I like FIFA 17 too, more than 2018 and 2019 but i am not deep in the FIFA experience, as i completely skipped the series from 2012 until 2016 so i am missing main chains in the series evolution.

Rock sorry for highjacking the post here, but as fas as i know and since you own a PS3 console, FIFA world cup 2010 and FIFA 2011 are considered two very solid games. I tried FIFA 11 in my PC and it plays really good for an old FIFA, the only problem is the lack of sliders, as the ball pass speed is too fast.
I completely missed out on those games mate.
I played Pes 6 on pc from 05 to 2011 I think.
Bought Pes 11 around the time it came out (also pc) next Pes was 13 on Xbox 360.
Sorry for off topic.
I think I gave Fifa 8 or something a go when playing Pes 6 , and absolutely hated it:)

But now that I'm more Fifa player I deffo give those a go.
Thanks for the tip mate.
Ps absolutely hate my PS3 though.
Wish I had my old 360 back:)
 

slamsoze

Champions League
28 September 2010
I completely missed out on those games mate.
I played Pes 6 on pc from 05 to 2011 I think.
Bought Pes 11 around the time it came out (also pc) next Pes was 13 on Xbox 360.
Sorry for off topic.
I think I gave Fifa 8 or something a go when playing Pes 6 , and absolutely hated it:)

But now that I'm more Fifa player I deffo give those a go.
Thanks for the tip mate.
Ps absolutely hate my PS3 though.
Wish I had my old 360 back:)
I feel you, i prefer more xbox controller than ps. As i see the wikipedia pages both FIFA 2010 world cup and FIFA 2011 have xbox360 versions, if you rebuy one in the future. I really would not make any suggestions, but i have read many times from ex-PES players that both versions are the equivalent of PES 5. And my problem with FIFA WC 2010 is that, it is consoles exclusive, so i cannot try to my old PC.

Sorry again for the Offtopic, i am just impressed as these two games have been uplaused a lot in my country's forum and i would like to know the opinions of players here in evoweb. It surprises me that no one has praised any of these, games the latest years.
 

rockstrongo

World Cup Winner
25 August 2006
Sweden
Hammarby
I feel you, i prefer more xbox controller than ps. As i see the wikipedia pages both FIFA 2010 world cup and FIFA 2011 have xbox360 versions, if you rebuy one in the future. I really would not make any suggestions, but i have read many times from ex-PES players that both versions are the equivalent of PES 5. And my problem with FIFA WC 2010 is that, it is consoles exclusive, so i cannot try to my old PC.

Sorry again for the Offtopic, i am just impressed as these two games have been uplaused a lot in my country's forum and i would like to know the opinions of players here in evoweb. It surprises me that no one has praised any of these, games the latest years.
I'm probably buying a 360 in the future,and will deffo buy these.
Yeah I prefer the Xbox controller,I got a new one (some elit sports controller) that works great, actually feel a difference from the standard one.
Wish Xbox/Konami would make these games back compatible,I'd be all over them
 

el niche

League 1
23 September 2013
Miami, FL
Atl. Huila
I'm thinking about trying this game again as '16 doesnt seem to have an updated patch. I just noticed in modding way there is a patch for 19/20. Anyone gave it a try?
I also have '18, guys recommend one over the other one?

Thanks
 

rockstrongo

World Cup Winner
25 August 2006
Sweden
Hammarby
I'm thinking about trying this game again as '16 doesnt seem to have an updated patch. I just noticed in modding way there is a patch for 19/20. Anyone gave it a try?
I also have '18, guys recommend one over the other one?

Thanks
For me on console I'd take 17 over 18,there's a few things I don't like about 18,shooting isn't as good as on 17 (18 feels faster not as realistic as 18)
And the "magnetic defending" (CPU players just swipes in in front of you and takes the ball)

Both good games (Vs 19+20)
I like 17 more though
 

slamsoze

Champions League
28 September 2010
For me on console I'd take 17 over 18,there's a few things I don't like about 18,shooting isn't as good as on 17 (18 feels faster not as realistic as 18)
And the "magnetic defending" (CPU players just swipes in in front of you and takes the ball)

Both good games (Vs 19+20)
I like 17 more though
For some reason i always agree with you about FIFA17. While i cannot explain why, cause i have not play the series from 2011 up to 2017, my playtime proves it by itself.
On 2017 i played more than 4 seasons, while 2018 was my biggest waste and i feel so sad, i have never played past the first August of the CM.
On 2019 i played almost 1,5 season.
If i make general resume, 17 feels the better on physics and everything seems to have better flow and smoothness.
18 seems to me so similar to 19, that i cannot find a reason to go back to play it, even just to make my money worth.
2019 the only pros i can find is newer roster and bigger ball size which i find important.
The ballsize on 17 and 18 unfortunately is on size of handball ball.
 

rockstrongo

World Cup Winner
25 August 2006
Sweden
Hammarby
For some reason i always agree with you about FIFA17. While i cannot explain why, cause i have not play the series from 2011 up to 2017, my playtime proves it by itself.
On 2017 i played more than 4 seasons, while 2018 was my biggest waste and i feel so sad, i have never played past the first August of the CM.
On 2019 i played almost 1,5 season.
If i make general resume, 17 feels the better on physics and everything seems to have better flow and smoothness.
18 seems to me so similar to 19, that i cannot find a reason to go back to play it, even just to make my money worth.
2019 the only pros i can find is newer roster and bigger ball size which i find important.
The ballsize on 17 and 18 unfortunately is on size of handball ball.
I agree there mate.
When I played 19 a few months a go,I just couldn't enjoy it anymore,that's why I gave 18 a chance again (didn't play it that much on release)
Somehow the small ball feels more weird on 18 than 17, especially since I've played broadcast cam for a while,it's not as noticeable when on that cam.
17 is a solid game,lots to f build up play (also on 18) something that disappeared from 19 and onward.
One thing though,I always play different leagues than PL on 17-18-19,but when playing PL the game (I did a test run on all of them) feels so overpowered Vs BL/La Liga,don't know why but everything feels so frenzy playing it!
 
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el niche

League 1
23 September 2013
Miami, FL
Atl. Huila
Welp.... I've got 3 CM going simultaneously, FIFA 17,19 and 20. To me the '17 is the one Im having the most fun with. 19 is not bad, but some weird BS goes on (a lot of 90min goals, tiki taka from the AI) and 20 is good too but my AI defenders are crap, freekicks are confusing and heading is a bit too nerfed for my taste.
Everytime I go back to my '17 CM , it's just fun (yeah the ball size is the size of a ping pong...). Even though its the oldest frostbite implementation, I find the response and fluity better than the later ones.
 

Chris Davies

Chief PESsimist
Staff
14 May 2003
Tranmere Rovers
Welp.... I've got 3 CM going simultaneously, FIFA 17,19 and 20. To me the '17 is the one Im having the most fun with. 19 is not bad, but some weird BS goes on (a lot of 90min goals, tiki taka from the AI) and 20 is good too but my AI defenders are crap, freekicks are confusing and heading is a bit too nerfed for my taste.
Everytime I go back to my '17 CM , it's just fun (yeah the ball size is the size of a ping pong...). Even though its the oldest frostbite implementation, I find the response and fluity better than the later ones.
Being at home has made me download all the old FIFAs again, and 17 was always my favourite. Have to say, I was a bit annoyed at the responsiveness of 17 today, so reinstalled 18 and was really pleasantly surprised when playing the World Cup mode. The AI was ridiculously deadly with their finishing, but. May have to give a World Cup a go.
 

slamsoze

Champions League
28 September 2010
Being at home has made me download all the old FIFAs again, and 17 was always my favourite. Have to say, I was a bit annoyed at the responsiveness of 17 today, so reinstalled 18 and was really pleasantly surprised when playing the World Cup mode. The AI was ridiculously deadly with their finishing, but. May have to give a World Cup a go.
Although i am a FIFA-noob the only "IF ONLY" i see on this game is the ball size. Every other cons is to acceptable levels. Still remains my most played among 17-18-19-20. Had the tough duty to unistall some games to make space to the HDD. I removed 18 & 19, kept 17 & 20.
 

el niche

League 1
23 September 2013
Miami, FL
Atl. Huila
Being at home has made me download all the old FIFAs again, and 17 was always my favourite. Have to say, I was a bit annoyed at the responsiveness of 17 today, so reinstalled 18 and was really pleasantly surprised when playing the World Cup mode. The AI was ridiculously deadly with their finishing, but. May have to give a World Cup a go.
Oh no...why would you say this!!???.... now I want to try '18........... although without a 19/20 season patch I know I wont go far with it.

I've been installing old games. I thikn my hard drive is now full of old fifa and pes games.
Could it be one of the best years was 17? as the pes is not bad at all that year.

I don't know if its a popular opinion but I really like the FIFA17 color palette. for some reason the F20 looks a bit dull or washed out.

Although i am a FIFA-noob the only "IF ONLY" i see on this game is the ball size. Every other cons is to acceptable levels. Still remains my most played among 17-18-19-20. Had the tough duty to unistall some games to make space to the HDD. I removed 18 & 19, kept 17 & 20.
I think Im keeping 20 and 17 too... although once every 5 games I have a nice '19 game, followed by a ping pong tiki taka one.
 

Madmac79

Premiership
11 September 2006
While the change of engine was quite evident, 17 (in my very humble opinion) inherits some good 16 feel compared with the sequels, so the mix between the "plastic" of the new course and the more raw old traits still partially here makes up for an enjoyable and more harmonic game compared with 18 onwards.
 

slamsoze

Champions League
28 September 2010
Just posting here so we can move to the next page ASAP.
The poster of the first message on page 104 made me freak out a couple of times already.
CLick on the time stamps, instead of pages, and it takes you straights to the most recent posts!!! :)
(just adding to move on faster :P )
 
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