JUNELELE
FUMA
- 27 March 2018
Some of my player highlights from our Full Manual Pro Club
FIFA 20 Discussion (Console Versions)
- Thread starter Chuny
- Start date
slamsoze
International
- 28 September 2010
Very beautiful. For me the 11vs11 modes on both FIFA and PES, who seem more slow and physical AND have midfield phase , shows directly that the problem on both games is the halfarsed AI, that can't compete with human in role playing, transitions and off the ball movement, resulting to this end to end mess in all 1P games, offline career modes and online pvp modes.
Whereever 1 is controlled by human and 10 by AI.
Gunslinger
Premiership
- 5 September 2016
Full manual is the only way to play FIFA.👍
@Matt10 Thanks so much that really helped.
One other question are you (or anyone) still seeing the weird free kick bug from the a.i? It seems since last update its back where the CPU fires in rocket free kicks, usually overhit, straight out of play? Is it a camera issue? When they have a free kick around the box its ok. its when its mid way into the half.
Anybody seeing this?
- Staff
- #3,545
Hey guys. Here's a thing.
I've just played FIFA 18's World Cup add-on, after finding 17 a bit unresponsive and not quite as brilliant as I remember.
Surprisingly, I loved it. The pace on "slow", was too slow. That BLEW MY MIND given how fast FIFA games are. Defenders defend, there's individuality... and you can't exploit the game easily using fast players. (Believe me, I tried.)
Anyway - this got me looking at reviews, of 18, 19 and 20 (getting to the point now, and why I'm posting this here).
Every review (user review AND media review) of FIFA 19 absolutely pulls it to pieces. Rightly, IMO. But...
The first link for me if I Google "FIFA 19 review" is this one. If you haven't read this, please, spend five minutes reading this:
Bleacher Report: FIFA 19 Re-Review, and How EA Broke Its Promising Game
It's astonishing. Brilliant article, great insight. Especially when it talks about the game becoming much more about exploits than solid gameplay.
But what really gets me... Remember when @Matt10 was talking about how good the FIFA 20 beta was? (I experienced it - it REALLY WAS.) Along with Operation Sports, and the presentation they saw that showed how committed to realism they were? Then, between beta and final... The game turned to absolute shit? And now, we get monthly updates to fix FUT moans, and half the time they're rushed and break other parts of the game?
It all started with FIFA 19. Check out this article, seriously. It's like the blueprint.
I've just played FIFA 18's World Cup add-on, after finding 17 a bit unresponsive and not quite as brilliant as I remember.
Surprisingly, I loved it. The pace on "slow", was too slow. That BLEW MY MIND given how fast FIFA games are. Defenders defend, there's individuality... and you can't exploit the game easily using fast players. (Believe me, I tried.)
Anyway - this got me looking at reviews, of 18, 19 and 20 (getting to the point now, and why I'm posting this here).
Every review (user review AND media review) of FIFA 19 absolutely pulls it to pieces. Rightly, IMO. But...
The first link for me if I Google "FIFA 19 review" is this one. If you haven't read this, please, spend five minutes reading this:
Bleacher Report: FIFA 19 Re-Review, and How EA Broke Its Promising Game
It's astonishing. Brilliant article, great insight. Especially when it talks about the game becoming much more about exploits than solid gameplay.
But what really gets me... Remember when @Matt10 was talking about how good the FIFA 20 beta was? (I experienced it - it REALLY WAS.) Along with Operation Sports, and the presentation they saw that showed how committed to realism they were? Then, between beta and final... The game turned to absolute shit? And now, we get monthly updates to fix FUT moans, and half the time they're rushed and break other parts of the game?
It all started with FIFA 19. Check out this article, seriously. It's like the blueprint.
That article is absolutely useless in my opinion. In the beginning, they say that FIFA 19 has lived the life of multiple games, but the rest of the article basically only consists of eSports whining that the patches changed nothing. And this is supposed to warrant a downgrade of 8.5 => 4 for gameplay and 8 => 4 for the modes?
It's frustrating that, in a year in which EA is hosting multiple FIFA esports events across the globe, there isn't greater visibility on what's being done to improve the game for average players.
Guess what, average players don't give a shit about any of these mechanics they are crying about. I think they fail to realize that not everyone competes in the FUT Weekend League.
I'm still playing FIFA 19. The game didn't change much between the release date and now. And yes, it's one of the best virtual representations of modern football. There's no point in making the game eSports ready simply because real football itself isn't what people would call "eSports ready". There's no other sport where the correlation between team performance and results is so low.
It's frustrating that, in a year in which EA is hosting multiple FIFA esports events across the globe, there isn't greater visibility on what's being done to improve the game for average players.
Guess what, average players don't give a shit about any of these mechanics they are crying about. I think they fail to realize that not everyone competes in the FUT Weekend League.
I'm still playing FIFA 19. The game didn't change much between the release date and now. And yes, it's one of the best virtual representations of modern football. There's no point in making the game eSports ready simply because real football itself isn't what people would call "eSports ready". There's no other sport where the correlation between team performance and results is so low.
- Staff
- #3,547
Are you not saying the same things there? The article is saying "what about average players, where are the changes for them, and why are FUT players forcing rushed changes to the game that deviate so far from the original vision" - you're saying "average players don't care about FUT-driven changes".
I'm surprised at your strong reaction when everything that you're saying, I feel like is repeated in the article (albeit with references to what online players are feeling)! I thought it was a great article, and unusual - how often does a website review something and then go back to say "actually, we STRONGLY disagree with what the developers have, and are, doing to it through its life-cycle"?
Playing FIFA 18 and feeling how much slower, more difficult to exploit and generally more realistic it is in terms of a representation of football (IMO) - which is driven by gameplay changes not being made instantly for FUT whiners, and by the vision not deviating wildly from the original vision... I just feel like the path of the modern games is so wrong.
19 and 20 are so much faster and floatier it's unreal, to me.
Spot on article, but it basically says what everyone here always states, the game is moving so much for the instant exploit crowd/FUT online mindless 5-4 scorelines. I've actually deleted fifa 19 and on the verge of deleting 20 and just focus on 16-17. Will try 18 if there is a good somewhat recent patch.
Its kinda sad really, FIFA was heading in the right direction a few years ago, but whats the point if FUT will fill their wallets faster than a proper soccer game (just look at top selling games... fifa is always on top).
The best time to buy a fifa game is one year after, I really cant deal with their 10 patches that break /change gameplay.
Yup, it's been occuring for awhile now. The ball will comically soar through the air at 200 MPH while dipping and bending in otherworldly fashion. Unfortunately for them, they boot it out for a goal kick 99/100 times.
papinho81
Champions League
If it ain't online, why fix it?
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No, that's a misunderstanding, I'm trying to say that these FUT driven changes have minimal impact on anyone who's not actively trying to exploit the game. Average players won't even realize that something changed. Of course the game could do with certain improvements, but what they are demanding is exactly the wrong way to go. We need general improvements, not eSports balancing or increasing the skill gap with an even more convoluted control scheme.
Funnily enough, as I recall it, FIFA 18 felt more frantic to me than FIFA 17 and FIFA 19.
Matt10
International
- 5 February 2004
It's a good article, quite detailed and gives good examples of the gradual issues. Personally, I couldn't care less what those players he references thinks though. They are part of the problem and one of the big reasons that the FIFA 20 pre-patch beta never saw the light of release day. In 19, they complain about timed-finishing, I never used it, never cared for it. Complained about AI defending, to me that's something I would have preferred they had kept because now instead we have to micro-manage defenders throughout the pitch.
The problem with EA is two-fold. First, that they take feedback too literally. They assess the feedback and then execute too aggressively. Don't like AI defending? Okay, in 20 we'll put your defenders to be statues, won't let the central midfielders to track back into the defensive line's area, and ensure that you have to switch and jockey manually constantly to block off passing lanes.
The second problem is the fact that this an online game trying to serve its place in two different environments; online and offline. A dead-horse being beaten, I know, but the issue remains that the sport of footy/soccer is compressed as much as possible. Yes, sliders are there, but they only do so much. The serving of two different environments means that one side will not be happy. That's mainly us offline guys. What serves well for online guys, usually hurts us offline guys - and vice/versa. It's going to be a never-ending struggle until EA separate the online FIFA from the offline, FIFA - pretty much what they did in Madden. Even by power of suggestion i the description would go a long way in the modes, such as Ultimate Team, Arcade and Sim.
Pitch Notes continue to be the best source of where EA's head at. It's funny that they spend so much time in writing up those articles, because it's not based on long match samples. It's based on multiple match sample sizes. Just imagine if they actually tested how effective shot error was last year, and this year. It's a thing of beauty. They'll never know though.
papinho81
Champions League
That was a great post @Matt10 !
I only played fut back on fifa14 and I remember the gameplay was significantly different from the others modes, online ones included. Can't tell how it is now, but different gameplay depending on game modes is surely the only viable option for offline players. One could say this increases the work for ea team, but hey, they released volta this year which comes with its own gameplay.
Now considering non gameplay related issues, the career files that ea should fix to improve the mode experience have no impact on fut/online mode, but they hardly address them which shows how little they care about offline modes. Considering that, not sure they will ever (again?) care about releasing a different gameplay purely for offline modes.
I only played fut back on fifa14 and I remember the gameplay was significantly different from the others modes, online ones included. Can't tell how it is now, but different gameplay depending on game modes is surely the only viable option for offline players. One could say this increases the work for ea team, but hey, they released volta this year which comes with its own gameplay.
Now considering non gameplay related issues, the career files that ea should fix to improve the mode experience have no impact on fut/online mode, but they hardly address them which shows how little they care about offline modes. Considering that, not sure they will ever (again?) care about releasing a different gameplay purely for offline modes.
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rockstrongo
Retired Footballer
I've chosen FIFA 18 over other games the past 7-8 months now,started during 19 and kept going when 20 was released.
Still enjoy it,only downside for me playing outside the EPL is a lack of stadiums Vs 19/20.
Still take it over the past two games though
Still enjoy it,only downside for me playing outside the EPL is a lack of stadiums Vs 19/20.
Still take it over the past two games though
I re-installed '18 as I remember I enjoyed it a while ago. You were not kidding when you said it played slow. I actually feel it plays slower than '16. I dont know why '19 and '20 just dont connect with me..
The old games have something special I dont know what it is... 20 and 19 feel sometimes like im trying to hard to think "hey I like this". I've installed so many fifa games these days and some just click.
rockstrongo
Retired Footballer
I have 15-20 installed,and I honestly feel that 17/18 plays the best (I know a lot of people prefer 16).
Great pace on 18.
I remember people saying 18 was a bit hectic,but I find it being great
bsmaff
International
I decided to try FIFA 18 WC again after reading Chris' post.
I beat Tunisia 2-1, and for the first time in a year, I actually enjoyed playing FIFA again.
Not sure if it was just a Placebo effect, but the game plays so much better than 20.
I will finish my WC tournament this weekend, but after one game I really enjoyed it.
I beat Tunisia 2-1, and for the first time in a year, I actually enjoyed playing FIFA again.
Not sure if it was just a Placebo effect, but the game plays so much better than 20.
I will finish my WC tournament this weekend, but after one game I really enjoyed it.
- Staff
- #3,558
It was great for me, UP UNTIL I got Germany in the semis. Suddenly the game speed doubled (movement speed and pass speed), and I was heartbroken. Up to this point I had a lot of 0-0s. Suddenly I just had to watch Germany score at will - but... At least it's difficult. For me.
Speaking of which...
Interestingly, modding FIFA 20 with the Frostbite editor, I've discovered that slowing the internal sprint speed range down (and adding more friction to the ball in order to slow passes down, plus a higher restitution value that results in larger first-touches and more opportunities to win back possession for both sides) - makes the AI much harder to beat.
I was astounded by this but it seems a large part of how easy it is against the AI by default is that you can just speed your defenders over to the opponent and block a pass often. With a larger difference between slow and fast players (even with the fastest players then being slowed down a bit), suddenly a good move becomes impossible to stop if your positioning is lazy.
There's another mod out there for FIFA 20 - whose name I daren't mention seeing as he's out to make money out of his work - which turns down all the inflated EPL team attributes to sensible levels, too. Combined with that, I've had some GREAT games this afternoon.
The more you dig through with the Frosty editor, the more you realise just how much scope there is with 20 underneath it all - and how much of it they've thrown away.
You have an emotion engine that play-by-play affects a players' confidence and resulting abilities - but because a FUT will put the aimer on, miss a shot and scream "THE AIMER SHOWED IT WAS ON TARGET" (with no fucks given as to what the engine is trying to replicate).
You have real physics values down to stupid levels (as attested to by the missus, who works in that field) - from friction, to drag, to density and mass, and more rules of physics than I've ever had described to me in my life (each stadium is set in a part of the world that has its own "air viscosity" and that affects the flight of the ball, for fucks sake)...
...and then they go and multiply the speed values by 2 to "make it fun"... What the fuck, man.
so you think underneath the frostbite engine theres a better game? Better thatn those in the ignite? I’ve read beta gameplay of 18 and 20 were great, but better than pre patched 16 or 14? Its interesting bc people want a new engine but whats the point if it will be aimed at non sim gameplay.
bsmaff
International
There is definitely a better game in the current engine.
Some PC gameplay mods have proved that.
The problem though with EA and well all companies are they are cash/sales driven.
EA make more money out of FUT than they do out of actual game sales, and the FUT crowd want the game to be all about how good you are Daley Thompsons Olympic Challenge than you are at football.
Could you imagine the outcry if someone like me could switch formation and read the game tactically, but can't pull of the simplest of skill moves can compete with Ryu from Street Fighter who can pull 150 skill moves out their arse with Harry Maguire and smack one from 30 yards in the top corner every attack?
No that's not the game they want.. They want the game to be every pass a skill pass and then near the box flick it over your head and volley into top corner.
The problem is people like me and Chris are the absolute 5% minority of who want an actual simulation, where the tactics you play have as much impact as how good you are.
There was a FIFA might of been 17 or 18, when if I played a team playing 5-3-2 I just couldn't score, so combat that formation I used to have to change to 3-4-3 to get a goal.
There is no doubt a hole in the market for a decent simulation football game, but at present both games are as bad as each other.
Sorry PES although I used to love it, it has been a pile of garbage since the PS3 days and every year disappoints.
Also with the cost of producing games at the moment and licenses there is just no one who will enter the market.
rockstrongo
Retired Footballer
Being a 5% myself I only see one solution if people want proper SIM,or at least something close to it.
That's playing the game with other like-minded people 10v10 (or 11v11).
Can't imagine EA or Konami ever giving us a CPU resembling a human opponent.
And yes sliders are all fine,but as long as you can't set tendencies for the CPU those are really minor fixes for a much bigger problem
When we can control/fix how aggressive/how often they shoot/pass/cross/keep the ball etc etc ,then these games Vs the CPU would really be playing Vs a human.
Can't really praise playing league/games Vs and with other humans (who's like-minded) enough!
It's brilliant
That's playing the game with other like-minded people 10v10 (or 11v11).
Can't imagine EA or Konami ever giving us a CPU resembling a human opponent.
And yes sliders are all fine,but as long as you can't set tendencies for the CPU those are really minor fixes for a much bigger problem
When we can control/fix how aggressive/how often they shoot/pass/cross/keep the ball etc etc ,then these games Vs the CPU would really be playing Vs a human.
Can't really praise playing league/games Vs and with other humans (who's like-minded) enough!
It's brilliant
100% IMO. I am a big fan of 16 but having recently started playing 17 again, I can say without a doubt, it is my favorite Fifa of all time. The size of the ball is my only complaint but I can live with that. Cpu fouls, crosses and headers are a threat and not nerfed, AI defenders who actually seem to care about defending. No tiki taka from Cpu or very little of it, dribbling is good also.
- Staff
- #3,563
There are two modern FIFA's I've managed to play 3+ seasons in - 17 and 19. Didn't even manage that with 16.
Bearing in mind how highly regarded 16 is, I think 17 is underappreciated, given that it's a Frostbite version of it. Maybe not as good as a package (due to how buggy and, at times, unresponsive it can be) - but as you say, that's somewhat made up for by the increased freedom. Before they took that freedom too far and made the game feel like you're controlling plastic bags in the wind.
But the thing with all of this, is...
I went back to FIFA 14 the other day, because there's this *amazing* patch on PC that contains all the old World Cups and 400+ stadiums. After playing for an hour or two, I went back to FIFA 19, which is so much better than 20 it's a joke (better ball physics, better defensive AI, more varied patterns of play)...
...and I thought to myself, wow. 14 and 19 really aren't that different.
I'm the first to say that PES has had the same robotic, AI-cheating core since the PS2 days. But FIFA started getting good around FIFA 10, with decent producers and the switch to the Ignite engine - and it's barely moved on since.
This year we'll get another tweaked version, with a sexier-looking port on the PS5/XBX. Another year of the same core problems, sped up a little more and with more realism sacrifices to appease the "skill gap" FUT lovers.
What happens next year? With the power of the PS5/XBX, will we get a new game? Or will the focus be on making it more fun, to increase microtransactions to all-new levels?
I know what I'm predicting.
Oh I agree, I currently have 16 and 17 installed. I deleted 18-20. There is something special about the ignite engine tho, some sort of freedom or to me the ball seems a more separate entity than in frostbite. There are ocurrences of randomness that I havent experienced in frostbite. It does have its problems tho, its not perfect. Currently have a CM in each.
slamsoze
International
- 28 September 2010
Last week did the same. Deleted 18 & 19 due to disk capacity. After due to collectors addiction i have, i finally deleted SW Batllefront and reinstalled 18 cause of WC2018 dlc and 2019 cause of Women WC2019, although i never play women mode. Just for the shake of collection.
I followed Chris Davies path and tried 2019. Until now my most played remains 2017 with more than 4 seasons CM, then it is 2018, then 2020 and last 2019.
After reading Chris posts i was between 18 & 19, i went for 2019. It felt good and refreshing after so much time. It impresses me that although i have gone until December of CM in the past, i still have 0 achievment trophies. Maybe they are more FuT-oriented. So 2019 feels good, it is always lightweight and fast on normal speed. The ball size is very good on par with 2017.
The problem is, i played one game, i had fun, but i did not have the thurst for one more game. I played one, had fun and switched off then. While closing, i saw that 2020 had a new update, 1.18??? iIRC. Maybe i will visit 2020 latter to check what is the new update about.
Sidenote: Also i like 18 and 19 about the players heights, cause it uses the metric system, while 2017 uses the imperial one. Plus for all FIFAs i still need the salary wage system to he displayed yearly. For a non-UK citizen, i find it too hard to be familiar with the weekly wage system.
ive got the update for ps4 - ijust cant understand why they havent sorted out that ridiculous bobble on the ball. Every ground pass i do regardless of the player the ball bobbles in a very unrealistic way. i think i see it more as i play zoomed in on dynamic
Havnet played anything for couple weeks but I was enjoying fifa 20 before I stopped.
I played fifa 19 up until around November. As much because I got sick of playing any football game (that's all i play) as it was a problem with fifa.
Are you guys saying fifa 19 with the final patch was better than fifa 20?
Or did it get worse after the november/December patches?
If I go back, should I freeze fifa 19 in time where it is, or fully update it?
(I'm downloading the fifa 18 demo too. Dont remember much about it, not even the teams.
I do remember the fifa 17 demo though. The first frostbite. Remember thinking the ball felt so nice and soft...sounds a bit weird written like that)
I played fifa 19 up until around November. As much because I got sick of playing any football game (that's all i play) as it was a problem with fifa.
Are you guys saying fifa 19 with the final patch was better than fifa 20?
Or did it get worse after the november/December patches?
If I go back, should I freeze fifa 19 in time where it is, or fully update it?
(I'm downloading the fifa 18 demo too. Dont remember much about it, not even the teams.
I do remember the fifa 17 demo though. The first frostbite. Remember thinking the ball felt so nice and soft...sounds a bit weird written like that)
- Staff
- #3,568
I wrote an essay on this for @fernadez the other day after he asked me a simple question via PM - abridged version below:
With the coronavirus situation (and going insane), I've taken the opportunity to install every PES and FIFA I've ever had (for the umpteenth time in the last few years), which is a mental illness in itself...
A week or two ago, I was re-reading the FIFA 16 to 20 threads from when each demo was released, to see A) how I felt about them at release (to see if my opinion had changed), and B) what everyone else thought at the time, in order to try the "best bits" of FIFA.
Reading those old posts of mine, I was amazed*. From the start I liked 16 and 17, didn't like 18, LOVED 19 until a patch sped it up, and 20 I've pretty much hated from the start. I give up with 20 now - I've been using the Frosty editor to rebuild the physics and make the game more tactical, and after 2-3 weeks of trying to make the ball less tennis-ball-like and make it more difficult to rely on the exact same moves over and over... I give up.
20 is a big problem. You can't fix the fact that they've so clearly moved the game towards "arcade" than ever - speeding everything up and turning defenders into a foosball-table perfect line of static morons, for online players to have to constantly micro-manage. It's honestly the worst FIFA of the decade IMO.
*I was amazed because I still felt pretty much the same when going back and replaying them... After all this time.
But to go back to the start...
FIFA 16 is very good, but I just can't love it. I don't like how the AI only plays one way, it's a bit stiff, and I don't love the physics (I know they're good, but they're not as free or expansive as the modern games, in my opinion). Honestly, I just find it a bit dull.
FIFA 17's gameplay was a tiny bit better, in my (unpopular) opinion, even though it was Frostbite. It was pretty buggy - and the AI was even more basic. Going back to it, there's a lack of responsiveness in certain circumstances too. But, the ball felt more free, headers were allowed, and tiki-taka wasn't as mad.
FIFA 18 is weird. It's the start of the engine getting more erratic, in my opinion. I was enjoying the World Cup add-on, even though almost every group game was a grind, 0-0s and 1-0s (which I prefer to silly scores). Then, I was up against Germany, and it was horrendous. Gameplay was 100% faster, the AI resorted to tiki-taka, and I just turned it off at half time.
FIFA 19, though... It turns out that if I go back to those old forum posts, I still feel the same. My feelings haven't changed at all. Which tells me that the games are actually getting worse, rather than my tastes are changing...
In September-time, I made some posts (and @fernadez too) talking about the dribbling, and how on normal speed (in the demo) the animation felt odd because there were so many corrective touches on the ball - but on slow speed in the release version it felt natural, because you could see each touch and it was (at the time) mind-blowing to dribble so fluently with the left stick alone.
But then patch after patch started ruining different things in order to try and fix FUT/eSports moaners. The original release is better, BUT unfortunately it's got some career-ruining bugs and really, you need the patches.
Honestly, I still really like it with the patches - but you also have to accept the worst bits:
- The league table is always silly (the league winners draw half their games).
- Your opponents play a severely weakened team against you way too often.
- There are barely any fouls.
- The biggie - most find the game much too easy versus the AI.
The good news? Paulv2k4's patches on PC (the career one, and the gameplay one) fix all of that.
It is UNBELIEVABLE to me how much better it feels than 20 (primarily because of its braindead defenders). So it's 19 for me, for the time being.
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Chris, this is wonderful, thank you for passing on such a detailed assessment!
I remember we both liked fifa 19 after the second patch I think, when they increased the size of the ball. It's still felt heavy. You could still see each touch of the ball and really 'pace' your players. I remember close dribbling with Naby Keita and every turn felt meaningful.
19 was also the first game that didnt feel 'empty' to me. A horribly reductive term too often aimed at fifa, but it's the best way to describe it for me. I remember every game feeling different.
If I'm only in it for a couple of exhibition games each night, should I keep 19 at my november patch? Did the pure gameplay continue down the arcade route after xmas?
