Game Etiquette

[ClassicD]

I made this topic because a post Mauras made in the WE10 thread got me thinking, and it's nothing to do with WE10 so a new topic was needed.

One major issue I won't expect to see corrected is the cheating play. Last night on PES5 Online I caught the second kid that, once caught ahead on the scoring chart and feeling the pressure of a non justified lead spent the last 15m of game passing the ball between defenders and keepers... we cannot expect everyone to have fair play, it should be the game engine itself to determine that after a determined number of such passes it would either be a bookable ofense and/or the players would have increasing difficulty in keeping the ball. You can pressure them with your strikers but it takes a lot of time to get the ball and it's often an attacking foul.

If WE/PES is to be a fair online experience this must end in future versons but I don't expect that.

Can't believe I'm going to disagree with you Mauras!

The problem isn't a player who keeps possession, it's a game engine which awards fouls far too often. A player who keeps possession is doing the right thing if his ultimate goal is to secure victory. That's the beauty of football, some teams will attack incessently no matter how tight the game is or what the score stands at, while others will get their noses in front and 'control' the flow and pace of the game to their advantage. I have to admit in PES4 online I often played this way in the league matches we had on here. If it was a very tight game and about 15 mins or less to go with a scoreline that favoured me, I would try and keep the ball at all costs without showing too much incentive for attacking play. If I have the ball, the other player cannot score (well, usually!).

In WE9/PES5 I haven't played competitively so I've never tried it here, I can't say how I feel about it. Some people have different opinions on sportsmanship in the games - what you consider cheating here I probably consider smart, perhaps boring and not entertaining, but definitely 'smart', tactical football.

A pet hate of mine while playing online is an opponent who moves his defender onto the goal line at free-kicks, especially at short-range free-kicks as you really need a more floated, slower shot here and it's not hard to head away using this strategically-placed defender. It's perhaps more acceptable now in WE9/PES5 and in 'local' games (same PS2), but in PES4 online as the client the FK power-bar was extremely erratic and pretty impossible to judge correctly. I think in that situation if you're good enough to get the ball up and down over the wall and it's a goal, that should be enough.

Other people don't close down the defender at a goal-kick, so that the player has the choice of going short or playing the long pass to midfield. IMO, if I have taller, more powerful midfielders it's beneficial for me if the opposition GK is forced to punt the ball high. It's not taking advantage of a glitch in the game (like I think the FK thing was in PES4 online as the client), the GK can still play it short if he chooses it's just a bit risky. It's tactical, IMO.

What about short FKs? Sometimes as a defensive player the game doesn't allow you to mark a free opponent player in time and an opponent who will always go short really bugs me. This is taking advantage of a 'glitch' or fault in the game IMO.

It's a bit like in a racing game, you can 'cut' certain corners or chicanes by driving across grass or bits of track you are not meant to. How does everyone else play, what in your eyes constitutes cheating or 'cheap' play?

 

[Coopz]

Not in anyway is keeping the ball cheating, but it is the most effective way of pissing someone off

Like you said CD each person has there own ways of going about winning

Mauras i have a question, was the guy attacking or playing the game "properly " before he scored? if so then he played the game perfectly to get a win.

I can see where your coming from in some way but in PES/WE attack is not the best way of defending so u may be forced into holding a lead in different ways

 

[gomito#10]

yeah if im up 2-0 and im getting lag in the second half, you better god damn belive im going to keep the ball away from the other player and pass it around as much as possible. that aint cheating, thats strategy!!!!

 

[ActionHank]

A pet hate of mine while playing online is an opponent who moves his defender onto the goal line at free-kicks, especially at short-range free-kicks as you really need a more floated, slower shot here and it's not hard to head away using this strategically-placed defender. It's perhaps more acceptable now in WE9/PES5 and in 'local' games (same PS2), but in PES4 online as the client the FK power-bar was extremely erratic and pretty impossible to judge correctly. I think in that situation if you're good enough to get the ball up and down over the wall and it's a goal, that should be enough.

Having a defender on the line is not 'cheating' at all. You may find it annoying, but it's one of the most basic strategies in football. Just because someone has conceded a free-kick to you does not mean they ought to stand by and take their chances with your skill and a potentially dodgy power bar. The free kick might have been iffy in the first place. That's a bit like saying you should put a man on the line if Juninho, Nakamura or Beckham are over the FK, but you shouldn't put one on the line if somebody is using a team with less skillfull FK takers, becasue it's already quite difficult for them to score. Putting a defender on the line is a perfectly legimite defensive tactic - it frees up one of your men in the box as well. As much as you hate going short, maybe you should try it some times, especially if you're faced with a glitchy power bar.

Other people don't close down the defender at a goal-kick, so that the player has the choice of going short or playing the long pass to midfield. IMO, if I have taller, more powerful midfielders it's beneficial for me if the opposition GK is forced to punt the ball high. It's not taking advantage of a glitch in the game (like I think the FK thing was in PES4 online as the client), the GK can still play it short if he chooses it's just a bit risky. It's tactical, IMO.

Closing down the defender at a GK is actually taking advantage of a glitch, for me. Since when can real life GKs only go short to ONE player? Ordinarily, a second defender will make another angle for a pass, so the fact that WE forces you to go to only one player is, for me, if not a glitch, then simply poor game design. Nevertheless, I agree that it's not cheating, because the GK can still go short if he takes it quickly enough, or can go long if it's too late for that.

As far as pet hates go... I just wish everyone would stop using Brazil! The number of times I've dominated shots and possession, only to have the other guy finsih on top thanks to some 20 yard half-chance belters from Adriano... Still, it's obviously not cheating!

 

[jumbo]

I don't know about this guys. If it's in the game and not a glitch or anything, I don't see why not do those things. I know they're annoying and people do that against me too but I'm no saint either.

I always block the FK with my Def unless I'm already 3:0 and wanna give the guy a reason not to disconnect.

I never pass the ball around in def when I'm winning. I do it when im getting OWNED and dont want to concede any more. The best defense is attack.

 

[Ginner]

I haven't had much experience at playing against opponents that are not AI so I get pretty worked up quite quickly when I'm not in possession. I do agree that it is tactical though to hold up the possession and circulate the ball within the defence. I'd get pretty bored of actually doing that myself after a while, never mind being on the receiving end of it!

 

[ClassicD]

Having a defender on the line is not 'cheating' at all. You may find it annoying, but it's one of the most basic strategies in football. Just because someone has conceded a free-kick to you does not mean they ought to stand by and take their chances with your skill and a potentially dodgy power bar. The free kick might have been iffy in the first place. That's a bit like saying you should put a man on the line if Juninho, Nakamura or Beckham are over the FK, but you shouldn't put one on the line if somebody is using a team with less skillfull FK takers, becasue it's already quite difficult for them to score. Putting a defender on the line is a perfectly legimite defensive tactic - it frees up one of your men in the box as well. As much as you hate going short, maybe you should try it some times, especially if you're faced with a glitchy power bar.

I suppose in PES5/WE9 it's fine, they fixed the power bar, but in PES4 online if you were the client the power bar was useless, you had to judge completely on your own timing as there was nothing onscreen to help you, even your FK taker's animation was subject to lag. I think in that situation, it is lame to make it even harder when it's already f**ked up for the client.

Closing down the defender at a GK is actually taking advantage of a glitch, for me. Since when can real life GKs only go short to ONE player? Ordinarily, a second defender will make another angle for a pass, so the fact that WE forces you to go to only one player is, for me, if not a glitch, then simply poor game design. Nevertheless, I agree that it's not cheating, because the GK can still go short if he takes it quickly enough, or can go long if it's too late for that.

Ah, but in real life you would also be able to bring another player up and close down any extra defender, just like you can the first, so that makes no difference for me.

Jumbo, say for example you are playing a really tough opponent and he is either better than you at the game, or just better than you in that particular match. You try all game but it's clear you're struggling to gewt through his defense and make some chances, but you get a free-kick, and score a wonderful goal. Now there's 20 mins left, and you know the guy is on form and has just not had any luck yet, do you still attack? Like I said, this is where the game excels, it's up to the individual person. In that case I would try and retain the ball as much as possible. If the opportunity arose to pass forward I would, but I'm not going to pass forward 'no matter what', just for the sake of it, if I have an easier pass on to a player alongside or behind me. Like I said, if I have the ball, the opponent cannot score, that to me, is the best form of defense when you are protecting a lead.

btw, I always close down defenders at goal-kicks and throw-ins, etc, I just know some folk who prefer not to.

 

[ActionHank]

Ah, but in real life you would also be able to bring another player up and close down any extra defender, just like you can the first, so that makes no difference for me.

Not really. If you have four players across the back the opposition won't always bring in two midfielders in addition to both strikers. And if they do, they'd leave a gap in midfield for you to exploit with a longer punt.

But anyway, I'm not saying closing down is cheating. It's taking advantage of poor game design - but that's WE. It's not like you give the ball back to your oponent whenever he tries to play a pass to the wings and the winger uselessly hurdles it, or miscontrols it and puts it into touch despite your having super canceled.

 

[Slobber]

Passing the ball around and keeping possession is in no way cheating. This method should NOT be punished. I'm sorry, but if you think this type of play deserves to be punished, you are just like those people who come on in to an online game, and start thinking they have some sort of right to keep yelling at everyone what they can and can't do.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. No one owes you a thing online, so if you don't like certain things about online play, don't play online. I personally didn't like people who started insulting me for no reason. One called me a "Spanish prick", 'cos I always choose Valencia, and one complained the entire game, saying I wasn't attacking, despite having far more possession, far more shots on targer, far more shots off targer, and more corners.

THESE are legitimate moans. Complaining about different styles of play, and thinking people should be punished for using a different style which you don't like, just makes me think too many people online, are like spoilt little brats who take their ball home, when things don't go their way.

 

[Mauras]

Hi Classic ,

Nice to see someone giving any importance to what I write lol.

I agree with everyone that say that keeping posession once you are winning is a smart thing to do and cannot be considered cheating but that was not what I was trying to describe.

If in a real game you pass the ball around ONLY between keeper, CBs and SBs the ref will warn the team and issue cards if it get's repeated.

I've nothing against a smart possession game all over the field, shielding the ball and keeping it close to your control, as in real soccer... the stupid thing to do is really throw long balls ahead when you feel you should be protecting the score.. but that as NOTHING to do with passing the ball around keeper and defenders exclusively.. .that is someting that is allowed in WE/PES with great ease and that in real soccer is punished.

Hope I made my point a bit clearer now specially because I'm exacly a... posession player in WE so no way I'm condemning possession, but spending 20m of a game seeing the oposing guy passing the ball between his keper and CBs and seeing every effort of my strikers to pick the ball end in a foul is hardly someting I will recognize as "inteligent and fair" play.

PS - Yes coops, he wasn't attaking as me but he did 4,5 good attacks. Then once he scored I pressured even more and while being very lucky on some rebounds he surely felt the best thing to do would be keep the ball next to his keeper... what he did very effectively but in my view in a not very fair way. I'm the first one to clap if I see a player doing what barça did yesterday at Milan in some periods: awesome posession and first time passing all over the field keeping the ball with you and danger away.. but that was surely not what I saw.

 

[Coopz]

If in a real game you pass the ball around ONLY between keeper, CBs and SBs the ref will warn the team and issue cards if it get's repeated.

I have never seen the ref warn or issues cards for passing the ball around the back 4 and goalie, the ref cant do nothing like that and there would be an uproar if he could

Arsenal did it not to long ago and so did Barca

So i dunno where u have got that idea from Mate

Yeah i understand what u mean about it not seeming fair but thats how football is sometimes. i know it pisses me off bigtime when they keep the ball from me but you better belive if i play them again and i score i will do it for 85 minutes to see how they like it

 

[unbornchikkenvoices]

If in a real game you pass the ball around ONLY between keeper, CBs and SBs the ref will warn the team and issue cards if it get's repeated.

That statment is 100% not true. its not even logical to think its true! why shouldnt a team in real life or on PES keep possesion in any way they like.


The liverpool side of the 80's used to use this tactic all the time and in those days the keeper could pick up a back pass.

dearohdear

 

[Mauras]

Pals,

I advise you to check FIFA laws of soccer, a about fair play and the specific rule about this issue.

Cannot believe you are telling me that you see ANY team go away with 15m of passes between keeper and defenders, with the ball staying always in the last third of their own half. That doesn't happen because they know they can't do it, the same way refs punish a keeper if he takes too long to kick the ball (I'm not talking about the 6 second rule).

I'll look for the rule and post it here.

 

[Tom]

Pals,

I advise you to check FIFA laws of soccer, a about fair play and the specific rule about this issue.

Cannot believe you are telling me that you see ANY team go away with 15m of passes between keeper and defenders, with the ball staying always in the last third of their own half. That doesn't happen because they know they can't do it, the same way refs punish a keeper if he takes too long to kick the ball (I'm not talking about the 6 second rule).

I'll look for the rule and post it here.

Mate, you're definitely wrong there. This has never ever happened and there's no rule either. You must have heard about that on April 1st somewhere

 

[Mauras]

True, you guys are probably right.

The funny thing is that such event is foreeseen in other colective sports like handball and futsal but not soccer. Stupid.

The thing is that in PES is too easy to this with such caution that you can spend 15m or more passing the ball in your area (because the game engine makes your uncontrolled strikers move back after you press instead of stayng and closing passing lines).

I tink the game engine should make it harder to incurr in such play, in fact in previous versions this was harder to do as as strikers closed in a lot faster and after a while it would be hard to keep the ball around the keeper without creating a very difficult scenario.

A way to counter this could be: change the tactics settings to "forward press" and play 3, maybe 4 strikers.

PS - the funny thing is that ppl consider unsporting behaviour if the opponent continously brings down your players cutting play. It's also in the laws, and if the player doesn't take a card why call it unsportive? Same issue as here. To me both strategies are unsportive. If a player passes the ball around his team and doesn't let me even smell it, hands on and clap for the superior player but if someone passes around CBs and keeper making good use of the way game engine brings your players back (even if with low defensive arrows).. .thats just unsportive in my opinion.

 

[Stealth131]

Pals,

I advise you to check FIFA laws of soccer, a about fair play and the specific rule about this issue.

Cannot believe you are telling me that you see ANY team go away with 15m of passes between keeper and defenders, with the ball staying always in the last third of their own half. That doesn't happen because they know they can't do it, the same way refs punish a keeper if he takes too long to kick the ball (I'm not talking about the 6 second rule).

I'll look for the rule and post it here.

I remember watching an Italy game during the last world cup (I think they were playing Mexico in the group stages) and with about 10 mins to go, the result was 1-1, a result that meant both teams would go through. The last 10 mins involved the mexico defence passing in amongst one another without being pressed by the italians. The referee got so annoyed by this, he blew the whistle early despite significant injury time being displayed. No-one got booked for doing that. I remember that game because Cassano came on off the bench and nearly scored; only to get a bollocking from his team-mates.

 

[Mauras]

that's disgusting and surely the reason why it doesn't happen that often in real soccer.

I understand ppl saying it's "clever", specially in WE that allows that with greater ease than real soccer but I cannot consider it respectful either for the oposition and/or mainly to the ppl that pay the ticktes to watch a fair soccer game.

 

[kevano22]

I remember watching an Italy game during the last world cup (I think they were playing Mexico in the group stages) and with about 10 mins to go, the result was 1-1, a result that meant both teams would go through. The last 10 mins involved the mexico defence passing in amongst one another without being pressed by the italians. The referee got so annoyed by this, he blew the whistle early despite significant injury time being displayed. No-one got booked for doing that. I remember that game because Cassano came on off the bench and nearly scored; only to get a bollocking from his team-mates.

id like to see that video...sounds odd!

 

[TikTikTikTikTik]

yeah i remember that. Quite amusing really.

Ass for the possesion argumenr why dont you just push up you midfield and pressurise him. I know whn im not hosting i dont try to keep possesion because of the lag probs often occuring in games. However is someone did it to me i would think; "this guy is very good and understands football". If im hosting the second half and am up ill slow down the game and pass it about till i see a chance/opening and then ill attack.

 

[soccerluver]

that match in the world cup was really amazing... i don't see where it's a breach of the rules...
you should know that in handball or other sports you have very strick rules, in some sports you can replace an expulsed player or it can come back on after x minutes penalty. i think it's hockey.