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Gerd-Lance Armstrong, comment please

gerd

Retired Footballer
8 January 2002
Over the moon
KRC Genk, Spurs
This says that there were procedural mistakes...it does not say that Armstrong did not take drugs...
I have copied part of the message in your link:



"Vrijman did not attempt to answer the question of whether Armstrong or any other cyclist actually used banned drugs; rather, his report focused on the information provided to the newspaper L'Equipe, which last fall published its story saying Armstrong's old samples were found to be positive for a synthetic erythropoietin, or rEPO."


Trust me...i know for certain...the staff of the Discovery Channel team is almost completely Belgian and i know some guys who work for them...they all take drugs (every single professional cyclist does).
You know what Discovery Channel does my friends??? In the off-season period they go "on holiday" and take epo and even more advanced drugs (PCP if i'm not mistaken), then they drain their blood and freeze it. In the weeks before the big races they take blood transfusions of the "old" blood. Taken that way, drugs are not traceable.
Lance's European "home" base was Gerona in Spain. Why Spain??? Because until 1/1/2006 Spain had the most liberal drugs legislation of the world. Since january this year this has changed (and that' one of the reason why Lance quit professional cycling).
Very recently (two weeks ago as a matter of fact), the Spanish police did a raid against doctor Fuentes and in his office they discovered frozen blood sample of 200 different athletes (mainly cyclists but also track and field athletes and football players).
CSaunders my friend, i know you won't believe, but trust me...i really know...i'm 100% sure...sooner or later Armstrong will be caught (and IMHO he already was caught) just like track and field runner Carl Lewis...

I used to be a very, very big cycling freak and i still consider myself as an expert in that sport, a big part of my family works around it...
I don't like it anymore since i know what "drugs" cyclist take. The big riders like Armstrong (but also all his rivals) take high tech drugs but the smaller fry take unbelievable things.
A guy i know from work spend a year in jail (and is waiting for his trial) because he was dealing in what people call "le pot belge". This is a mix of Cocain, Heroïn and amfetamins...its (literally) lethal...
 
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joostebrood

Premiership
4 March 2002
Gerd is absolutely right. It takes away a lot from what is an incredible sport. I'm also quite positive Armstrong took drugs. I'm also positive every single rider takes drugs (except for the Dutch of course, we don't do such things).
 

gerd

Retired Footballer
8 January 2002
Over the moon
KRC Genk, Spurs
Yes Joost basically cycling is the most beautiful sport in the world...
If only Armstrong as an icon of that sport (maybe the first worldwide icon cyclist) would have said that medical industry uses virtually every single cyclist as some sort of guinea pig and that enough was enough...that "drugs" are sometimes medically justifiable and that everyone takes them and that the time has come to have a large and broad debate about them, then i would have considered him a very, very big sports man, one of the biggest ever...
Instead he acts like Carl Lewis: denouncing drugs while taking it himself...

I'm sure this will infuriate Csaunders (and i don't mean to because i like you my friend) but American media don't know much about cycling they report rather biased...let me take an example. Sometimes i like to watch NBA and i know that the last NBA winners were the San Antonio Spurs in a final against the Detroit Pistons (and damn i'm not even sure). But my knowledge does not goes further than that...i would never discuss about that sport, let alone write about it as a journalist. I'm pretty sure, no entirely sure that most American sports writers have as much knowledge about cycling than me about NBA...but i don't write about basketball...

What the message in the link above means is that the Dutch guy proved that Armstrong wasn't treated fair (and he never was in France) but he never said anything about the fact that he did not took drugs...he doesn't even discuss the lab's analysis...he only says

a that their was no counter-analysis
b that those result never should have been leaked to the press...
c (implicitly) that L' Equipe should not have publicised them...

An analogy to make my point:

Arguably one can say that Saddam Hoessein does not have a fair trial, but that does not mean that he was not guilty... (and of course there is not comparison between Saddam and Lance).
 
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gomito#10

World Cup Winner
9 May 2003
DC, USA
gerd said:
Yes Joost basically cycling is the most beautiful sport in the world...
If only Armstrong as an icon of that sport (maybe the first worldwide icon cyclist) would have said that medical industry uses virtually every single cyclist as some sort of guinea pig and that enough was enough...that "drugs" are sometimes medically justifiable and that everyone takes them and that the time has come to have a large and broad debate about them, then i would have considered him a very, very big sports man, one of the biggest ever...
Instead he acts like Carl Lewis: denouncing drugs while taking it himself...

I'm sure this will infuriate Csaunders (and i don't mean to because i like you my friend) but American media don't know much about cycling they report rather biased...let me take an example. Sometimes i like to watch NBA and i know that the last NBA winners were the San Antonio Spurs in a final against the Detroit Pistons (and damn i'm not even sure). But my knowledge does not goes further than that...i would never discuss about that sport, let alone write about it as a journalist. I'm pretty sure, no entirely sure that most American sports writers have as much knowledge about cycling than me about NBA...but i don't write about basketball...

What the message in the link above means is that the Dutch guy proved that Armstrong wasn't treated fair (and he never was in France) but he never said anything about the fact that he did not took drugs...he doesn't even discuss the lab's analysis...he only says

a that their was no counter-analysis
b that those result never should have been leaked to the press...
c (implicitly) that L' Equipe should not have publicised them...

An analogy to make my point:

Arguably one can say that Saddam Hoessein does not have a fair trial, but that does not mean that he was not guilty... (and of course there is not comparison between Saddam and Lance).
we have a great saying here in america,

your innocent until proven guilty...

the french tried to frame him, thats pretty obvious... why? jealousy...

i cant see it any other way because lance has never been proven guilty..
 

Stan

Allez les Lionceaux !!!
12 September 2002
Fair enough my friend, but i know better...
Sooner or later you will see.

Mind you i don't even blame him for taking drugs. They all do, cycling is really the toughest sport in the world (in the last Giro riders were supposed to climb a mountain 2740 metres high which was very steep (24%) and had a dirt track the last 7 kilometres).
 

gomito#10

World Cup Winner
9 May 2003
DC, USA
Stan said:
Fair enough my friend, but i know better...
Sooner or later you will see.

Mind you i don't even blame him for taking drugs. They all do, cycling is really the toughest sport in the world (in the last Giro riders were supposed to climb a mountain 2740 metres high which was very steep (24%) and had a dirt track the last 7 kilometres).
well if its true, and everyone else is doping, then its an even playing field, so he still would be considered the greatest cyclist of our time.. and still an amazing athelete
 

Stan

Allez les Lionceaux !!!
12 September 2002
The greatest cyclist ever is Begian though CSaunders: Eddy Merckx....he won it all (only 5 Tour de France's, but also all the other big races several times). Even Lance admits that Eddy is the greatest.


But Eddy also took drugs....
 

joostebrood

Premiership
4 March 2002
In the end it's all the same and believe me, even with the doping it'sfar from easy to ride a Tour de France
 

Stan

Allez les Lionceaux !!!
12 September 2002
But certainly do not beleive chauvinistic French journalists, frustrated by the lack of succes of French cyclism...
 

joostebrood

Premiership
4 March 2002
Touche...

ThomasGoal, never try to be funny, you're not capable of that. There's about 25000 guys on this forum who can silence you with ease.

Anyway. what you're saying Gerd, it makes it harder to know who's right and who's wrong. It's not all about guilty or not guilty. There's indeed more to it. The French have several reasons to blame Lance for a lot of things. Lance does not only have his 7 Tour de France wins on the line, he's also a fighter to cure cancer. In other words: Armstrong and doping would be more fatal than any other sportsman using drugs. He's raised millions to fight cancer and has been very important to many people. It's a tough one this, much more sentiments underneath the surface.
 

ThomasGOAL

Retired Footballer
15 March 2003
France
Stan said:
But certainly do not beleive chauvinistic French journalists, frustrated by the lack of succes of French cyclism...
lol of course, but you don't understand what i mean, i just says alot cyclists use a illegal product and Lance are in, no doubt.

joostebrood, just shut up and listen your *azi chants
 

joostebrood

Premiership
4 March 2002
ThomasGOAL said:
lol of course, but you don't understand what i mean, i just says alot cyclists use a illegal product and Lance are in, no doubt.

joostebrood, just shut up and listen your *azi chants
hahahahaha, Thomas, you are priceless. Clueless, but priceless.
 

joostebrood

Premiership
4 March 2002
Just to let everyone know, I've made an official complaint against ThomasGoal for calling me a nazi. This is the second time that this happens and it's a really mean thing to say to someone who lost family during the war.
 

joostebrood

Premiership
4 March 2002
I'm glad you say that Dermot. Thomas, I think your reaction would have been different if it was you who had his grandparents roasted like a pig.
 

Dermot

Banned
13 August 2002
New York
Arsenal
It's one of the biggest insults, calling someone the very name of the ones who took 2 of your grandparents and cooked them slowly while still alive over a spitroast like a piece of mutton, while you as a kid have to stand there looking at them laughing really loud while they poke them with sticks and put salt and pepper on them over the open fire.
 

joostebrood

Premiership
4 March 2002
People can't sink as low as calling another person by the name of the people who used his own grandparents as huge marshmellows just because their nose had a different shape.
 

Dermot

Banned
13 August 2002
New York
Arsenal
Lets get back to talking about another Jew here, Lance Armstrong. Enough about Joost's grandparents, at least the set we talked about, we excluded the ones that were tortured to death over a number of days while Joost had to sit and watch, even forced sometimes to partake in the events, jabbing them with 230 volt electrical rods, inserting firehoses into their anuses then turning them on and hooking their nipples up to a set of jumpleads connected to a 6 tonne Arctic lorry.
 

ThomasGOAL

Retired Footballer
15 March 2003
France
THE BOMB !!!!! \\:o/
in french sorry :
http://www.lequipe.fr/Cyclisme/20060623_121041_01.html

translate with Reverso :

23/06/2006 Cycling - Doping: throw(launch) Armstrong in the vice
Information Equips Him(It) Magazine (to appear in the edition(publishing) of Saturday, June 24th, 2006): throw(launch) Armstrong, septuble winner(conqueror) of the Tour de France, would have recognized from 1996 to have taken drugs. The American racing cyclist would also have threatened Greg Lemond and paid to escape a positive control. These news
 

Alien_

League 2
31 July 2003
here they go again :roll: ,an info by l'equipe, what a coincidence :lol:

they got ridiculized once, now they're going for the double :lmao:
 

Cloud1863

Premiership
10 December 2004
Stoke City
Some of the comments in this thread are not funny are way below the belt, and an insult to humanity.

Thomas do you speak to everyone with such disrespect?
 
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joostebrood

Premiership
4 March 2002
It's time someone tells Thomas the truth. Admins, can I have the permission to go all out on Thomas for a few hours? I mean insulting him till the bone?
 

hubneo

League 1
23 November 2003
Kill Nougaro
csaunders said:
yes thomas, we can all certainly beleive something from a french newspaper :(
right that's french shit, i only belive in fox news and cnn, where Lance say he didn't take anything!

stupid french frog!
 

Stan

Allez les Lionceaux !!!
12 September 2002
Allright lets be totally honest.
Of course Armstrong got all kinds of forbidden substances.
In roughly the same period as Armstrong (a litle bit ealier) i had the same kind of cancer as Armstrong. I also got a treatment with all kinds of forbidden substances. But not the same substances Armstrong got: Epo, growing hormons (groeihormonen in Dutch) and the other ones...

Source: former team mate under oath before a court in Dallas according to French news paper "Le Monde" (one of the best news papers in the world, but they can make mistakes too).

The fact that Arsmtrong took illegal drugs is not very special, what i said is that every bloody good cyclist takes illegal drugs, including the French (not so good) professional cyclists.

At this moments one of my former colleagues is judged in Bordeaux in what is called in France "l'affaire de Cahors".
This man (Freddy Sergant) sold a cocktail of amfetamines, cocain and heroin...need i say more????
 
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