Manual Passing BLEW MY MIND: PES 2020 Realism Upgrade

[papinho81]

Yeah, I've always been Team "Manual Makes Attributes Meaningless", but after persisting with manual for a few days on 2020, it's clear to me that I was wrong and PA0 is not fully manual.

(Otherwise I would be missing a LOT more passes - you can use the manual pass modifier, which is R1 or R2 by default I think, to see the "actual" manual line and compare it with your PA0 pass.)

I also felt the AI did actually react to your control settings, and that pass accuracy was lower. UNTIL, I played the team at the bottom of the league and they ended the first half with 94% pass accuracy. Now I'm not so sure.

On manual, I can't play with the freedom I should be able to, having decent players. Matches don't look like real Premier League or Championship matches - they look like slow, careful, laggy kickarounds with no special moments. (On PA1+, they're all basketball games, counters back and forth and back and forth. Neither is good. IMO.)

The game (sometimes) adds a second's lag to your input on any input method - add the delay of manual passing to that and it feels a million miles from real football to me.

Yes, it feels great to pull off a through pass and know it was (mostly) all you, and the same when scoring (I scored a goal that wouldn't be possible on assisted shooting, from a tight angle, right into the corner, and it felt great).

But is it football, only choosing easy passes and giving away possession constantly (every match)? When you're a high quality team? I don't think so.

Full manual might be fun - but it's not football (or even realism). It's something else. Just like eSports football IS NOT football. Fun, maybe. But no representation of what professional football is.

With training/practice you can get 80% passing completion rate without playing the easy pass. But don't expect to jump on manual and manage that right away.

I agree that manual is not truly manual in either games and in pes it still feels quite on rails.
But comparing fuma to esports is hard to swallow.

Playing football in real life needs muscle/brain connection training (proprioception in French). It is not because you know which pass is the right one that the whole chain to your foot will do the job correctly. I think manual passing even if not truly full manual (and I like the idea that players individuality matters, and it does in my experience) comes closer to this conception of an action (aiming) to its completion (success/failure) involving thinking and muscle/brain training. Not a way back for me.

 

[MASTER - w11]

Yeah, I've always been Team "Manual Makes Attributes Meaningless", but after persisting with manual for a few days on 2020, it's clear to me that I was wrong and PA0 is not fully manual.

(Otherwise I would be missing a LOT more passes - you can use the manual pass modifier, which is R1 or R2 by default I think, to see the "actual" manual line and compare it with your PA0 pass.)

I also felt the AI did actually react to your control settings, and that pass accuracy was lower. UNTIL, I played the team at the bottom of the league and they ended the first half with 94% pass accuracy. Now I'm not so sure.

On manual, I can't play with the freedom I should be able to, having decent players. Matches don't look like real Premier League or Championship matches - they look like slow, careful, laggy kickarounds with no special moments. (On PA1+, they're all basketball games, counters back and forth and back and forth. Neither is good. IMO.)

The game (sometimes) adds a second's lag to your input on any input method - add the delay of manual passing to that and it feels a million miles from real football to me.

Yes, it feels great to pull off a through pass and know it was (mostly) all you, and the same when scoring (I scored a goal that wouldn't be possible on assisted shooting, from a tight angle, right into the corner, and it felt great).

But is it football, only choosing easy passes and giving away possession constantly (every match)? When you're a high quality team? I don't think so.

Full manual might be fun - but it's not football (or even realism). It's something else. Just like eSports football IS NOT football. Fun, maybe. But no representation of what professional football is.

I see where you are coming from here, and I agree and disagree at the same time.

I mean, when you are condensing a 90min match into 10min, you will need a higher tempo and more counter attacks to create enough chances. When you go to "no pass support" the game becomes slower and that can potentially ruin your experience in a 10min match. But for those looking for a longer game I think the slower pace really suits and can pass as "real" from what football games are offering these days.

Everytime I remove the pass support I feel amazed in the first 2 or 3 matches then I switch back to support 1 because I miss the fast moments of football. And I find myself "cheating" like you said, runing a lot and only trying the easiest passes so I don't lose possession. Maybe it's just the case of getting better at it, I'm not sure.

 

[Chris Davies]

With training/practice you can get 80% passing completion rate without playing the easy pass. But don't expect to jump on manual and manage that right away.

If the AI didn't use the same patterns every time (the old "pass back to defender, smash a ball 80 yards forward that the striker chests down perfectly every time" etc. etc. etc.), I would invest more time into it. But the AI never changes - nor is the player ID of opposition players visible in any way (or used to their advantage in any way). IMO.

Trying "the other game" on manual, it's pretty obvious PES does it much better. But the matches don't represent real football and I'm pretty sure they wouldn't even if I dedicated all my gaming time to practicing. Maybe I'm wrong.

And the idea (as I've read multiple times) that Konami devs purposefully develop a game that "is meant to be played on manual" for the best experience - when less than 10%, possibly 1%, of players even know that option exists - is laughable. IMO.

These games aren't art any more - they're not someone's great vision (as we've seen by how patches dial back and dilute all their ideas, month after month). They're designed to please the masses and make the most money.

(Slightly off-topic that last bit, sorry...)

I mean, when you are condensing a 90min match into 10min, you will need a higher tempo and more counter attacks to create enough chances. When you go to "no pass support" the game becomes slower and that can potentially ruin your experience in a 10min match. But for those looking for a longer game I think the slower pace really suits and can pass as "real" from what football games are offering these days.

Everytime I remove the pass support I feel amazed in the first 2 or 3 matches then I switch back to support 1 because I miss the fast moments of football. And I find myself "cheating" like you said, runing a lot and only trying the easiest passes so I don't lose possession. Maybe it's just the case of getting better at it, I'm not sure.

Maybe that half-length element is a big part of it. I never finish more than one season on Football Manager because of how long it takes me to "do it properly" - analysing every part of the opponent's team and predicted tactics.

With non-management football games, I'd love to have that level of detail - but with the modern games, with the AI using the same strategies and tricks no matter the team (and the lowest teams in the league playing the best of everyone)... I have no desire to spend any time preparing for each game, because it barely matters - and e.g. playing Bournemouth or playing Leicester is the exact same game.

The same applies to how long they last. I spoke to @B-Man last night and he was saying he gets joy out of PES 2020 by just looking at his own players, enjoying their player ID and watching the team get better - ignoring the AI and how repetitive they are, and how weird (he said his last game, he beat Man City 7-1, and that's the game that made him stop playing).

When the games feel like that, 10 minute games are enough for me!

 

[papinho81]

If the AI didn't use the same patterns every time (the old "pass back to defender, smash a ball 80 yards forward that the striker chests down perfectly every time" etc. etc. etc.), I would invest more time into it. But the AI never changes - nor is the player ID of opposition players visible in any way (or used to their advantage in any way). IMO.

Trying "the other game" on manual, it's pretty obvious PES does it much better. But the matches don't represent real football and I'm pretty sure they wouldn't even if I dedicated all my gaming time to practicing. Maybe I'm wrong.

And the idea (as I've read multiple times) that Konami devs purposefully develop a game that "is meant to be played on manual" for the best experience - when less than 10%, possibly 1%, of players even know that option exists - is laughable. IMO.

These games aren't art any more - they're not someone's great vision (as we've seen by how patches dial back and dilute all their ideas, month after month). They're designed to please the masses and make the most money.

(Slightly off-topic that last bit, sorry...)

In my opinion even in manual pes20 is a really bad game. I would not like to train myself to fuma with this game. I actually don't want to touch it.
But may be with 17 or 14 or with fifas it can be a better start.

 

[The_Knight]

A few games in and I am really enjoying it! Through balls especially can be much more accurate/realistic

Look at how good this cross is, I wish I have scored, but no way would this be possible on assited huh?!

OOOOOH man that was sooo good. I love the manual crosses into the box when they're done from midfield. Just way sexier.

 

[The_Knight]

My main struggle with manual passing is to understand how much impact the stats have. I´m relly used to PA1 and I see a lot of individuality, but playing manual, although very nice and realistic, it makes me feel I don´t have the player stats making an impact. Thoughts?

I completely agree. This was why I hesitated to switch, because it doesn't make sense fr everyone to pass with the same accuracy. The AI engine isn't smart enough to know where the best pass would be, to correct my input with better passers. I did notice that better passers have better flexibility in choosing which direction I want to pass to, as well as more options to interpret my power correctly.

 

[normazimuth]

Yeah, I've always been Team "Manual Makes Attributes Meaningless", but after persisting with manual for a few days on 2020, it's clear to me that I was wrong and PA0 is not fully manual.

I didn't play full-manual much on PES2020 but I always felt it was easier than I expected it to be - ie. the passes have a degree of assistance....and when the momentum script is against you, have a suspicious habit of being assisted in going straight to a cpu player.

I also felt the AI did actually react to your control settings, and that pass accuracy was lower. UNTIL, I played the team at the bottom of the league and they ended the first half with 94% pass accuracy. Now I'm not so sure.

I've never bought the "if you play full manual the cpu does too" argument. I spend most of my PES time on PES2018 (only on fixed-cursor) but one of its worst traits was the cpu's tendency to go a bit ping-pong. So I tried playing it on switching-cursor, full-manual and the cpu still does it - there's no way it's playing on "full manual" when it strings together numerous high speed, first-touch, pixel-perfect back-heelers.

And for all that the cpu will misplace an occasional pass on full manual in 2020, imo it does so equally often on PA1, although it varies from match to match.

 

[Marlon Anthony]

Full manual might be fun - but it's not football (or even realism). It's something else. Just like eSports football IS NOT football. Fun, maybe. But no representation of what professional football is.

I was about to write something about manual passing but i think you've articulated it way better than i would've anyway.

I feel like Manual is more like digital football playground, It's really interesting to have a different approach to the way we play a football game by concentrating more than usual, Considering every decision rather than the usual casual button inputs and appreciating when we create something or even come close to scoring, There's no truer organic way to score!

However you're right, It's fine as an experiment or a challenge but you can't really play productive football especially if it's something competitive like a master league or a tourney. And i feel like manual doesn't really shine very well in PES 2020 because of the games own problems with latency, Player switching and unresponsive players even without manual passing.

Ironically for as shit as PES 2019 was, Manual passing actually benefited from that game's responsiveness and in my opinion was the only way to make that passive pile of vapid vag halfway engaging to play.

 

[Bonano]

I can't play manual in this game. I tried it again during this last week after seeing OPs video, but it just doesn't work for me for some reason. PES 16-18 I could only enjoy on full manual and the latter especially felt really good on manual, but 2019 and 2020 I actually prefer on PA1.

I think it's both the passing itself and the way the AI closes down space. I often find the game misinterprets and selects the wrong player I want to pass to and the passes themself are too slow (compare a pass on PA1 and manual with the same ammount of power). That coupled with the AI being too compact is what lets it down for me.

PA1 though is quite good IMO since they've introduced error if you pass in an awkward position. The same applies to shots.
The only thing I don't really like is the through balls. At times the game completely ignores your power input and sends passes long though you've only tapped ∆. Direction can be quite hit and miss as well.

@Chris Davies mentioned that bottom table teams are often the hardest to beat, which I agree with and think is one of the biggest problems with the game. Just now I thought that it might be an option to turn up the difficulty when facing big teams. So if I normally play on TP I could set it to SS for games against the top tier teams. Has anyone tried this? Is it a viable option?

 

[The_Knight]

I can't play manual in this game. I tried it again during this last week after seeing OPs video, but it just doesn't work for me for some reason. PES 16-18 I could only enjoy on full manual and the latter especially felt really good on manual, but 2019 and 2020 I actually prefer on PA1.

Please give it a second chance after DP 9.0. Datapack 8 is just horrible and very anti-passing. It's a laboured slugfest and I feel bad because it came out right after I published my video. For the record, I am *not* enjoying the game at all these days.

 

[Bonano]

Thank you for your suggestion and optimism @The_Knight

But I don't think an update will change how I feel about manual since I've tried it every now and then from launch up until now and it felt the same to me. As I said, even 2019 felt much the same on manual to me.

Besides, I quite like PA1 on this, just wish they'd include a manual option for through balls, like they have basic, manual and advanced for shooting. I know that I can just press the trigger to activate it, but I can't really get accustomed to it; 1) the tricker doesn't lend itself to a split second decision that is often required and 2) I genuinely find it physically hard to nail stick precision when holding the trigger at the same time

BTW when is this DP9 comming out?

 

[The_Knight]

Thank you for your suggestion and optimism @The_Knight
BTW when is this DP9 comming out?

Unclear. It's was posted on steam database yesterday:

 

[rojofa]

Manual passing/crossing is about the only fun thing in this game for me - the moments where you pull off a great manual pass almost make up for how boring the rest of the gameplay is, but not enough to keep me coming back. The bland shooting (on any setting) usually ends up ruining any satisfaction from the build up, whether it results in a goal or not.

Using L1 for early cross, R2 for a higher lofted pass or combining L1+R2 for a high early cross provides a lot of options to pick out a trajectory for the pass you want. Players with "pinpoint crossing" and "weighted pass" also have a different trajectory on various types of pass/cross. "Early cross" can be used in situations other than crossing, such as switching the play quickly, a slight tap will produce a slightly lofted shorter pass etc.

This game is good for producing nice looking GIFs and compilation videos, especially modded in broadcast cam, but as a game to actually try and get stuck into modes like ML/online etc it's dreadful.

 

[ultra1312]

Hey @The_Knight, how much do you know if team spirit affects passing?

I am in master league with Celtic and we start very low, under 70, and I am finding it very hard to put passings moves together.

Obviously the standard of player ratijg is not as high as real Madrid or AC Milan either, but it is a noticeable different. Do you know if this will affect it?

 

[The_Knight]

Hey @The_Knight, how much do you know if team spirit affects passing?

I am in master league with Celtic and we start very low, under 70, and I am finding it very hard to put passings moves together.

Obviously the standard of player ratijg is not as high as real Madrid or AC Milan either, but it is a noticeable different. Do you know if this will affect it?

I'm afraid I can't help you there buddy I don't really play ML or MyClub but I should soon...

 

[rojofa]

I'm afraid I can't help you there buddy I don't really play ML or MyClub but I should soon...

If the part of PES you enjoy the most is the moments of gameplay realism as your videos have been centred around, I highly recommend NOT subjecting yourself to MyClub, especially online, it's 100mph PA3 ping pong madness, with 95+ rated mutants in all positions .

ML can be okay if your team spirit is high enough, but if the on-pitch gameplay is your priority and you don't need more off-pitch stuff to do, then Cup/League mode avoid the scripting and annoying TS mechanics.

 

[ultra1312]

Hey @The_Knight that's me been playing manual passing for 3 weeks now and it has absolutely changed how I play the game. I love it! Couldn't imagine going back to asisted now

I really struggled with keeping possesion at first, was getting done like 70-30 off opposition but I'm used to it now and can control it on superstar

The thing I like the most like you touch on is the extra animations! it is crazy that without manual you don't se these as the players wait for the canned animation. It makes the game feel 100 times smoother. The range of passing you can get it great. Thanks so much for your video, it has changed my PES experience!

Here is my first ever scored header from a manual cross, just looks so great

 

[The_Knight]

Hey @The_Knight

Here is my first ever scored header from a manual cross, just looks so great

What a beauty! You never forget your first goal off a manual cross. I'm putting together a manual shooting video... Man this is the real struggle.

 

[The_Knight]

Hey @The_Knight that's me been playing manual passing for 3 weeks now and it has absolutely changed how I play the game. I love it! Couldn't imagine going back to asisted now

I really struggled with keeping possesion at first, was getting done like 70-30 off opposition but I'm used to it now and can control it on superstar

The thing I like the most like you touch on is the extra animations! it is crazy that without manual you don't se these as the players wait for the canned animation. It makes the game feel 100 times smoother. The range of passing you can get it great. Thanks so much for your video, it has changed my PES experience!

Here is my first ever scored header from a manual cross, just looks so great

BTW, here's my first assisted header goal off a manual cross:


And here's my first full manual goal off a full manual cross!

 

[PRO_TOO]

More manual gameplay... after YouTube was processing the video the whole night. Might be down to capacities... as a free User i don’t mind to much. Anyway... here we go:

 

[ultra1312]

What a beauty! You never forget your first goal off a manual cross. I'm putting together a manual shooting video... Man this is the real struggle.

Yeah if you can put the same level of detail in the shooting one I may use that too!

I have only tried it briefly but I was shooting and it was going for a throw in etc 😂

 

[Isslander]

Not my first, but a manual cross goal I thought was rather good. Header is on basic, though, I still prefer basic shooting because it actually has wrong foot howlers sometimes. I would still rather play FUMA online than against assisted passing.

 

[Spursfan07]

@The_Knight do you still have difficulties scoring headers from corners? I've scored two 2 days after another

Key is not to sprint towards the goal, but just use your analog stick to move the player to the goal and let the player run in the box by not sprinting, at least that's how I scored those 2 goals

 

[The_Knight]

@The_Knight do you still have difficulties scoring headers from corners? I've scored two 2 days after another

Key is not to sprint towards the goal, but just use your analog stick to move the player to the goal and let the player run in the box by not sprinting, at least that's how I scored those 2 goals

Interesting. I will try that. No I haven't score yet. Even if it's a clear and easy header they will still hit it over the bar.

 

[Spursfan07]

Interesting. I will try that. No I haven't score yet. Even if it's a clear and easy header they will still hit it over the bar.

Ah I think it also could be a gameplay mod bug
I had this also with some GP mod I used a couple of months ago I think from gabepaullogan mod
Every shot went over the bar whatever power I used

 

[PRO_TOO]

Interesting. I will try that. No I haven't score yet. Even if it's a clear and easy header they will still hit it over the bar.

Sprinting and then heading is like everything else in this game: not that accurate. Like in real life.

Try to not sprint when unleashing crosses and put the body in position. When moving the receiver towards the ball, try to use SC to move “off the rail”! This will result in different outcomes and show different animations.
And right so in general; If you are using a simple set of inputs it results in a simple set of outcomes.

 

[Spursfan07]

What a beauty! You never forget your first goal off a manual cross. I'm putting together a manual shooting video... Man this is the real struggle.

Manual shooting is advanced shooting? Since there’s no option to full manual shooting, I think?

 

[The_Knight]

Manual shooting is advanced shooting? Since there’s no option to full manual shooting, I think?

Nope there's full manual shooting. Shooting has three options: Basic, Advanced, or Manual.

 

[Spursfan07]

Nope there's full manual shooting. Shooting has three options: Basic, Advanced, or Manual.

Ow, I might be on advanced atm in terms of shooting, anyway can’t wait for the video

 

[ultra1312]

Here we go then for my best ever header in PES game, I love the way he meets the ball.