- Thread starter
- #1
Moggi tapes - Italian Football Scandal
- Thread starter timmylv
- Start date
- Banned
- #2
gerd
Retired Footballer
Re: Moggi Tapes
Are these so called "transcriptions" genuine...
It's a litle bit easy to let the readers decide over the importance of the material that is gathered (rather cowardly IMHO).
On the other hand, something clearly is wrong with Juventus...the most succesfull Italian team but big underachievers in Europe. They won two ECI or Cl's. One final that should never been played (Heysel in 1985) and that against a Liverpool that was better...
The team that won the second one, later on proved to be a team that took drugs (Epo)...
In Italy too every non Juventus think that they are systematically advantaged by the football powers that be. But then again Italian football fans seem to be fond of conspiracy theories...
It wouldn't surprise me if this was true but i'm far from convinced...
Are these so called "transcriptions" genuine...
It's a litle bit easy to let the readers decide over the importance of the material that is gathered (rather cowardly IMHO).
On the other hand, something clearly is wrong with Juventus...the most succesfull Italian team but big underachievers in Europe. They won two ECI or Cl's. One final that should never been played (Heysel in 1985) and that against a Liverpool that was better...
The team that won the second one, later on proved to be a team that took drugs (Epo)...
In Italy too every non Juventus think that they are systematically advantaged by the football powers that be. But then again Italian football fans seem to be fond of conspiracy theories...
It wouldn't surprise me if this was true but i'm far from convinced...
- Moderator
- #3
- 19 August 2003
Re: Moggi Tapes
The epo thing was not proven, as the accused were aquited.
Anyway to me, this sounds like the usual conspiracy crap circus that comes out this time every year. Around the same time last season, the media tried to hang juve too because of that Cannavaro drugs video.
The epo thing was not proven, as the accused were aquited.
Anyway to me, this sounds like the usual conspiracy crap circus that comes out this time every year. Around the same time last season, the media tried to hang juve too because of that Cannavaro drugs video.
Stan
Allez les Lionceaux !!!
- 12 September 2002
Re: Moggi Tapes
The epo thing WAS proven Don, Juve's doctor(and only him which support conspiracy theories) was sentenced for it...
The epo thing WAS proven Don, Juve's doctor(and only him which support conspiracy theories) was sentenced for it...
SPiTFiRE
Eusébio forever
- 6 April 2004
- SL Benfica
Re: Moggi Tapes
Today: Luciano Moggi, Tomorrow: Pinto da Costa! :mad:
Today: Luciano Moggi, Tomorrow: Pinto da Costa! :mad:
- Moderator
- #7
- 19 August 2003
Re: Moggi Tapes
No Gerd, that doctor was later aquitted after all. More specifically, Agricola was aquitted later after he was sentenced.Stan said:
- Thread starter
- #9
Re: Moggi Tapes
Fact is, all you haters out there say Juve buy this, they buy that, but there is no proof. Yet it was Milan people, yes Milan who were relegated to the serie B cus their president at the time did guess what? FIX MATCHES. That's right people, pure, wholesome Milan were relegated cus they fixed matches. so haters, especially naive, Culan fans like you Dejsav, should get your facts straight. You know where Culan would be if it wasnt for Berlusconi? Serie B. Until there is proof, and not fabricated media bullshit, unitl Juve are relegated to serie B, then talk, cus the truth is, you guys are just jealous, and we're too damn good.
Hey, what was that team, that got relegated to Serie B back in the eighties(could have been the late seventies, my memory is shot), for doing that thing Juventus "supposedly" does, you know buying matches, oh yeah AC MILAN.dejsav said:
Fact is, all you haters out there say Juve buy this, they buy that, but there is no proof. Yet it was Milan people, yes Milan who were relegated to the serie B cus their president at the time did guess what? FIX MATCHES. That's right people, pure, wholesome Milan were relegated cus they fixed matches. so haters, especially naive, Culan fans like you Dejsav, should get your facts straight. You know where Culan would be if it wasnt for Berlusconi? Serie B. Until there is proof, and not fabricated media bullshit, unitl Juve are relegated to serie B, then talk, cus the truth is, you guys are just jealous, and we're too damn good.
- Thread starter
- #11
Re: Moggi Tapes
A second thought, NO, let juv be the champion (I'm pretty sure they will, and this investment will end for nothing as usual). why not? that what's Serie A deserves. milan, inter, roma, & etc all go to serie B if juv does not want them to compete. and next time juv could 100% sure to dump their strips, cus stars will be all over their jersey. and next time get urself a better ref in the CL final, if u could make that far.
nice point, the same sentence should be given to juv as you requested.Rocky29 said:
A second thought, NO, let juv be the champion (I'm pretty sure they will, and this investment will end for nothing as usual). why not? that what's Serie A deserves. milan, inter, roma, & etc all go to serie B if juv does not want them to compete. and next time juv could 100% sure to dump their strips, cus stars will be all over their jersey. and next time get urself a better ref in the CL final, if u could make that far.
- Thread starter
- #13
Stan
Allez les Lionceaux !!!
- 12 September 2002
Re: Moggi Tapes
In 2005 the appeal case came for and indeed Juventus and doctor Giraudo won because... at the time of administration most of the drugs wer enot on the list of forbidden substances (they were in 2004).
That's why Juventus and their medical staff were acquitted and perhaps this was a fair decision in appeal, but the fact that EPO was provided remains proven Don...
At the same trial Zinedine Zidane conceded that he had taken creatina (when playing for Juventus) which is whatcyclist use as a more prefect and not traceable form of EPO (several cyclists are banned for years due to creatina, Dario Frigo is the most famous example..)
Source: Calcio - A History of Italian Football by John Foot (a book you would love Don).
I know that you love Juventus Don...what i don't like about clubs like Juventus, Milan, Real Madrid is that they cheat...they use all means (fair and unfair) to win trophies...In Italy Juventus seems to come away with it (and yes usually they have good teams, sometimes even outstanding) in Europe they don't....
Give an average Dutch team sponsors like FIAT and the Agnelli family and they will win more silverware than Juventus.... (qame goes for most English clubs, Real Madrid, Barcelona,...that's why i love victories in CL by clubs like Ajax and Porto)
Football needs NBA rules, open accounting, draft system....
In November 2004 judge Guaraniello found the Juventus doctor guilty of supplying and administering illegal substances including Epo, although the club itself escaped punishment.Don Domenico said:
In 2005 the appeal case came for and indeed Juventus and doctor Giraudo won because... at the time of administration most of the drugs wer enot on the list of forbidden substances (they were in 2004).
That's why Juventus and their medical staff were acquitted and perhaps this was a fair decision in appeal, but the fact that EPO was provided remains proven Don...
At the same trial Zinedine Zidane conceded that he had taken creatina (when playing for Juventus) which is whatcyclist use as a more prefect and not traceable form of EPO (several cyclists are banned for years due to creatina, Dario Frigo is the most famous example..)
Source: Calcio - A History of Italian Football by John Foot (a book you would love Don).
I know that you love Juventus Don...what i don't like about clubs like Juventus, Milan, Real Madrid is that they cheat...they use all means (fair and unfair) to win trophies...In Italy Juventus seems to come away with it (and yes usually they have good teams, sometimes even outstanding) in Europe they don't....
Give an average Dutch team sponsors like FIAT and the Agnelli family and they will win more silverware than Juventus.... (qame goes for most English clubs, Real Madrid, Barcelona,...that's why i love victories in CL by clubs like Ajax and Porto)
Football needs NBA rules, open accounting, draft system....
Re: Moggi Tapes
"hi pairetto! i'm moggi, we want that referee, that's the car for you"
"for sure moggi, not a problem"
:lmao:
john elkann has expelled moggi and giraudo from juventus for next season
maybe we can watch a regular championship in 2007/08
"hi pairetto! i'm moggi, we want that referee, that's the car for you"
"for sure moggi, not a problem"
:lmao:
john elkann has expelled moggi and giraudo from juventus for next season
maybe we can watch a regular championship in 2007/08
- Moderator
- #16
- 19 August 2003
Re: Moggi Tapes
Yes, of course you are right. Though my point was that juve was not guilty, it was not illegal.Stan said:
I'll take a look at it, thanks for the tip.Stan said:
I agree.Stan said:
Again, nothing official yet.dejsav said:
- Moderator
- #18
- 19 August 2003
Re: Moggi Tapes
Exactly, that's just speculation and Elkann hinting at not backing Moggi and Giraudo. Not official. Anyway I would not mind Moggi leaving at this stage, I'd like to think he's done much good to the club over the years and these tapes contain nothing all too substantial, but Moggi has left a dirty stench behind.
Exactly, that's just speculation and Elkann hinting at not backing Moggi and Giraudo. Not official. Anyway I would not mind Moggi leaving at this stage, I'd like to think he's done much good to the club over the years and these tapes contain nothing all too substantial, but Moggi has left a dirty stench behind.
Last edited:
- Moderator
- #19
Re: Moggi Tapes
Theyre saying he'll get about a year suspension.
Theyre saying he'll get about a year suspension.
Gedtillo
Mediocentro defensivo
- 13 July 2004
Re: Moggi Tapes
Dear Stan,
Mind to explain how come Real Madrid or Barça cheat to win? Thank you, much appreciated.
Dear Stan,
Mind to explain how come Real Madrid or Barça cheat to win? Thank you, much appreciated.
- Banned
- #21
gerd
Retired Footballer
Re: Moggi Tapes
Real Madrid had millions of debts until Perez came, then he set up some sort of hoax with the municidad de Madrid. The municidad bought Real Madrid's training complex for millions and returned it as a "gift" to Real...in a couple of days a club who was on the verge of bankrupt became immensely rich and could start buying galacticos...this is not fair...That way it's very easy to become the biggest club in the world...it isn't fair towards other Madrid club, it isn't fair towards other Spanish clubs ande it isn't fair towards other European clubs...that's why i don't like Real Madrid (as a club - i've nothing against the players and i even enjoyed their football - but at the start of the galactico team they had an unfair advantage).
Milan: simply Berlusconi, need i say more...
Juventus: explained this in this thread...
Sport should also be about ethics...
In America (NBA) all this could not be possible, clubs need open accounting over there...In a football world with open accounting and fair accounting a club like Real Madrid would not exist anymore....or at least would have been sanctioned instead...now Real Madrid has become one of the richest clubs in the world due to the galacticos...
By the way, i never mentioned Barcelona as cheaters...
Real Madrid had millions of debts until Perez came, then he set up some sort of hoax with the municidad de Madrid. The municidad bought Real Madrid's training complex for millions and returned it as a "gift" to Real...in a couple of days a club who was on the verge of bankrupt became immensely rich and could start buying galacticos...this is not fair...That way it's very easy to become the biggest club in the world...it isn't fair towards other Madrid club, it isn't fair towards other Spanish clubs ande it isn't fair towards other European clubs...that's why i don't like Real Madrid (as a club - i've nothing against the players and i even enjoyed their football - but at the start of the galactico team they had an unfair advantage).
Milan: simply Berlusconi, need i say more...
Juventus: explained this in this thread...
Sport should also be about ethics...
In America (NBA) all this could not be possible, clubs need open accounting over there...In a football world with open accounting and fair accounting a club like Real Madrid would not exist anymore....or at least would have been sanctioned instead...now Real Madrid has become one of the richest clubs in the world due to the galacticos...
By the way, i never mentioned Barcelona as cheaters...
- Moderator
- #22
- 19 August 2003
Re: Moggi Tapes
A lot of dirt is coming up now, concerning juventus. The match fixing scandals with the transcrips ( of more than 100 pages!) and other illegal and practices such as the GEA management firm, that is under investigation for "illegal competition with use of threats and violence".
Giraudo is being investiaged concerning trasfer fraude and illegal accounting.
Other clubs such as Fiorentina, Messina, udinese and others are also called into the dirt mix. The lombardians clubs are being named too.
Serie A can go into chaos with Juventus possibly/likely demoted?
A lot of dirt is coming up now, concerning juventus. The match fixing scandals with the transcrips ( of more than 100 pages!) and other illegal and practices such as the GEA management firm, that is under investigation for "illegal competition with use of threats and violence".
Giraudo is being investiaged concerning trasfer fraude and illegal accounting.
Other clubs such as Fiorentina, Messina, udinese and others are also called into the dirt mix. The lombardians clubs are being named too.
Serie A can go into chaos with Juventus possibly/likely demoted?
Cloud1863
Premiership
- 10 December 2004
- Stoke City
Re: Moggi Tapes
Totaly agree with you on your point about Real, this is why I have very little respect for the club. I dont really like Barca but have respect for them in the way they have transformed as club over the last few years. TO me all these big clubs Real, Milan, Juve and even Chelsea are without a soul. The may attract the biggest players, win the most trophies and make the most money but they are missing something important. Man U, Liverpool, Barca etc are equal in the financial side, win trophies also but the most important fact is these teams are "proper" football teams.gerd said:
- Moderator
- #24
- 19 August 2003
Re: Moggi Tapes
The end of an era. The triade(Moggi, Giraudo and Bettega) have handed in their resignation today. Juve revolution..
By the way, it seems these transcrips can't be used as evidence in the match-fixing scandal. One can't use the same evidence again, that has already been presented in a courtcase before, it Italy apparently.
The end of an era. The triade(Moggi, Giraudo and Bettega) have handed in their resignation today. Juve revolution..
By the way, it seems these transcrips can't be used as evidence in the match-fixing scandal. One can't use the same evidence again, that has already been presented in a courtcase before, it Italy apparently.
Cloud1863
Premiership
- 10 December 2004
- Stoke City
Re: Moggi Tapes
Can nothing be done outside Italy???Don Domenico said:
- Moderator
- #26
- 19 August 2003
Re: Moggi Tapes
Probably not, seeing as how this concerns Italy.
Probably not, seeing as how this concerns Italy.
- Moderator
- #27
Re: Moggi Tapes
This is similar to the case in the EPL (I think last year) when a bunch of managers criticized bribing and blackmailing for signing/releasing players.... but they were quickly shut down or ignored.
This is similar to the case in the EPL (I think last year) when a bunch of managers criticized bribing and blackmailing for signing/releasing players.... but they were quickly shut down or ignored.
- Banned
- #28
gerd
Retired Footballer
Re: Moggi Tapes
All of which proves my point that something is wrong in football....
Milanista, you are a nice guy, but it's rather cheap to begin about the alledged bribing and blackmailing in England. This is about Italy.
Italian football has problems...match fixing, corruption, racism...
This is a shame because Italy is perhaps the most football minded country in the world. People all over the world are watching Italian football. Clubs who have done things that are not allowed should be punished severely, no matter how big they are...Sport should be about fair play.
Shall i predict something: Juventus and other clubs will et a symbolical punishment or even none at all (lack of proof).
All of which proves my point that something is wrong in football....
Milanista, you are a nice guy, but it's rather cheap to begin about the alledged bribing and blackmailing in England. This is about Italy.
Italian football has problems...match fixing, corruption, racism...
This is a shame because Italy is perhaps the most football minded country in the world. People all over the world are watching Italian football. Clubs who have done things that are not allowed should be punished severely, no matter how big they are...Sport should be about fair play.
Shall i predict something: Juventus and other clubs will et a symbolical punishment or even none at all (lack of proof).
- Moderator
- #29
- 19 August 2003
Re: Moggi Tapes
Probably yes, this whole issue will probably blow over (such as all past scandalclaims have), due to some techincality that prevents the court from procurring evidence.
Meanwhile Alessandro Moggi(Luciano's son), risks a jail punishement. The GEA corporation is being investigated, because of alleged violence and extortion.
Lazio and Fiorentina, instead of just being involved, appear to have been playing an active role as well..
Probably yes, this whole issue will probably blow over (such as all past scandalclaims have), due to some techincality that prevents the court from procurring evidence.
Meanwhile Alessandro Moggi(Luciano's son), risks a jail punishement. The GEA corporation is being investigated, because of alleged violence and extortion.
Lazio and Fiorentina, instead of just being involved, appear to have been playing an active role as well..
Gedtillo
Mediocentro defensivo
- 13 July 2004
Re: Moggi Tapes
Please check your sources and try to learn what actually has happened before making such foolish statements.
Thank you. Want to know what has happened? As a Madrid citizen for the last 24 years I can tell you, and you will then be able to tell the truth, not some story about gifts and hoaxes...
Real Madrid had two major assets in the city: Santiago Bernabéu and the Ciudad Deportiva, a large training complex. The land on which they are set was bought in the 1940's, and that part of the city (especially the one concerning the training complex) was considered to be the outskirts, and therefore a "green zone" in which the City did not allow the construction or buildings of any kind apart from those sport-oriented. Real Madrid - evidently - had no trouble with this and built a very large set of football and basketball training fields, in which the team has trained for more or less 55 years.
In the late 90's, Real Madrid invested A LOT of money in the Santiago Bernabéu extension, but the Mayor stopped the works for months and the team accumulated a great loss. Eventually they were finished, but Real Madrid had loss millions in that period. When Florentino Pérez was running for presidence he announced that he would sell the Ciudad Deportiva (the training fields), which as the city grew has ended up being in the financial heart of Madrid (something like Regent Street or Fifth Avenue) to eliminate the debt.
The City Council warned Real Madrid that, should they sell those fields, nobody would be able to construct on them as they were still regarded as a "green zone". Real Madrid argued that all the adjacent lands had been re-stated as urban zone as the city grew, and that they had the right to demand that theirs was too. Evidently, the Council could do nothing but agree to that argument (as it was true that everybody had been allowed to build in the surrounding area), and Real Madrid was able to sell the greatest part of those lands for a great amount of money. Now four skyscrapers are being built there, Real Madrid having kept one for them.
With that money the team redeemed his debt and had spare money to buy some land in the new outskirts of the city and rebuild their training fields there, which they have finished doing pretty recently. So Real Madrid did nothing strange or any "hoax" of any kind. They sold what was theirs, and bought and built something similar in a much cheaper place outside the city. FC Barcelona has done pretty much the same and has just finished building their training fields, by the way.
To sum up:
- Real Madrid owned a land since the 40's outside Madrid.
- The city grew during these 60 years and now that zone is at the heart of the city.
- They asked that land to be reconsidered as an urban zone, as all the surroundings had been.
- They then sold that land, and rebuilt their training fields outside the city for much less money.
Rival teams called that reconsideration of the land unfair and a "favor" from the City Council... but the fact is that not only all the adjacent land, but also most of the rivals' assets had been too in their cities... as they should.
It is very unfair to try to put dirt on Real Madrid's name with wrong facts. Santiago Bernabéu was a man who invested A LOT of money and soul on this team in the forties and fifties, and all his work not only helped create the European Cup and helped football grow in Spain: he managed to build a team whose most important principles are elegant behaviour and fair play. Real Madrid has won almost all of his trophies prior to this selling (actually all but four), and has always been a club where courage and heart are more valuable than pure skill.
Barcelona always had the best players (Cruyff, Maradona, Romário, Rivaldo). Real Madrid had Di Stéfano... and then home grown players such as Juanito, Santillana, Butragueño, Míchel, Raúl... who have built the true legend of this team. The Galactico's four years (since the Zidane signing to this year) have been successful in a way, but have lost the connection with the crowd in these last years. But the team and the supporters are still the same. We loved to see the best players here, but we love more to see worse players fight to the end. That's why players like Raúl, no matter how fit they are, will always represent our feeling.
That is not what happened.gerd said:
Please check your sources and try to learn what actually has happened before making such foolish statements.
Thank you. Want to know what has happened? As a Madrid citizen for the last 24 years I can tell you, and you will then be able to tell the truth, not some story about gifts and hoaxes... Real Madrid had two major assets in the city: Santiago Bernabéu and the Ciudad Deportiva, a large training complex. The land on which they are set was bought in the 1940's, and that part of the city (especially the one concerning the training complex) was considered to be the outskirts, and therefore a "green zone" in which the City did not allow the construction or buildings of any kind apart from those sport-oriented. Real Madrid - evidently - had no trouble with this and built a very large set of football and basketball training fields, in which the team has trained for more or less 55 years.
In the late 90's, Real Madrid invested A LOT of money in the Santiago Bernabéu extension, but the Mayor stopped the works for months and the team accumulated a great loss. Eventually they were finished, but Real Madrid had loss millions in that period. When Florentino Pérez was running for presidence he announced that he would sell the Ciudad Deportiva (the training fields), which as the city grew has ended up being in the financial heart of Madrid (something like Regent Street or Fifth Avenue) to eliminate the debt.
The City Council warned Real Madrid that, should they sell those fields, nobody would be able to construct on them as they were still regarded as a "green zone". Real Madrid argued that all the adjacent lands had been re-stated as urban zone as the city grew, and that they had the right to demand that theirs was too. Evidently, the Council could do nothing but agree to that argument (as it was true that everybody had been allowed to build in the surrounding area), and Real Madrid was able to sell the greatest part of those lands for a great amount of money. Now four skyscrapers are being built there, Real Madrid having kept one for them.
With that money the team redeemed his debt and had spare money to buy some land in the new outskirts of the city and rebuild their training fields there, which they have finished doing pretty recently. So Real Madrid did nothing strange or any "hoax" of any kind. They sold what was theirs, and bought and built something similar in a much cheaper place outside the city. FC Barcelona has done pretty much the same and has just finished building their training fields, by the way.
To sum up:
- Real Madrid owned a land since the 40's outside Madrid.
- The city grew during these 60 years and now that zone is at the heart of the city.
- They asked that land to be reconsidered as an urban zone, as all the surroundings had been.
- They then sold that land, and rebuilt their training fields outside the city for much less money.
Rival teams called that reconsideration of the land unfair and a "favor" from the City Council... but the fact is that not only all the adjacent land, but also most of the rivals' assets had been too in their cities... as they should.
It is very unfair to try to put dirt on Real Madrid's name with wrong facts. Santiago Bernabéu was a man who invested A LOT of money and soul on this team in the forties and fifties, and all his work not only helped create the European Cup and helped football grow in Spain: he managed to build a team whose most important principles are elegant behaviour and fair play. Real Madrid has won almost all of his trophies prior to this selling (actually all but four), and has always been a club where courage and heart are more valuable than pure skill.
Barcelona always had the best players (Cruyff, Maradona, Romário, Rivaldo). Real Madrid had Di Stéfano... and then home grown players such as Juanito, Santillana, Butragueño, Míchel, Raúl... who have built the true legend of this team. The Galactico's four years (since the Zidane signing to this year) have been successful in a way, but have lost the connection with the crowd in these last years. But the team and the supporters are still the same. We loved to see the best players here, but we love more to see worse players fight to the end. That's why players like Raúl, no matter how fit they are, will always represent our feeling.