PES 2019 Discussion Thread (PS4, XB1)

Rodchenko said:
Lately I have been watching some videos of FUT twitch sessions on Youtube. It's hilarious. These people are absolutely psychotic. There is this one Italian guy, Masseo, absolutely batshit crazy. He is more famous for his antics while playing than for his actual performance.

I am far from saying that every one who plays FUT or myClub is like this but the whole system cultivates exhibitionism, greed, showboating and loss of reality and pumps out The occasional weirdo.

I am grateful I never got caught in that maelstrom, not because I am above vanity or being weird sometimes, but because I never understood the appeal of playing against a bunch of random strangers 10 minutes a time.
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The thing about PES in 2015 is that is was about the game whereas Fifa was about guys like that KFC guy minting it from youtube vids. In 2016 KFC got replaced by some fool playing Fifa with some hot birds.

The end result is that I moved away from fifa and had a sweet couple of years on PES.

There is a hardcore of gamers that kind of understand that micros and BS youtubers exist but just crack on with playing the game.

Problem is we're so hardcore we don't network so we don't exist because it makes no business sense to exist.

It made no business sense to konami to keep forums like pesfan going so it got shutdown. Consider it a form of game-cleansing.

All you need to know is we exist. And I'm glad this forum is still up.

Liverpool motto : You'll never walk alone

My motto : its time to walk alone.
 
Turdi182 said:
Yeah I also know that guy :D the funny( and sad) thing is that all those you tubers absolutely hate Fifa 19 and are aware of the scripting and momentum that happens in the game. They still play it and buy these dumb card packs for thousands of euros.

I have a different opinion about online games. I think the idea behind Ultimate Team and Master League Online(my club is dumb) is brilliant. You build a team and compete against other guys and their teams. It's just the money that completely destroyed it.
But like I said I like online gaming more than offline and I also grew up offline my first Pes was Pes 4 and even at that time (I think I was like 14) I liked it a lot more when a friend was there because there was real competition. Like most of you guys don't get the appealing of online gaming I don't get the fascination of playing a sports game offline. The AI will be repetitive sooner or later. There is no way that a company is able to build a AI that still has variety after a year of playing the game. It just never gave me some satisfaction to beat a machine. Yeah its not as stressful as playing online that's true and don't get me wrong I also play offline from time to time but after one season of master league I just get bored because i find it really repetitive. And that's not only on recent games that was also the case when I played the best footie game ever created (Pes 6.. Or 5?:CONF:) I think everybody has its own reasons why he either likes online or offline more.. I just wanted to say that I can understand the appealing of online modes like ultimate team or MyClub. I just hate the execution..
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I see were you are coming from. I also agree that there is nothing worse than losing to a machine, which is why the scripting in PES (and in FIFA) is all the more infuriating.

However, I am a guy with a knack for narratives. I love good stories. I love when a game allows you to weave real elements together with your own fabrications into your very unique, but somehow authentic story. Online (as far as I can tell) doesn't really lend itself to that. It's too fragmented and short-lived and it's too much about the player and not enough about the teams.

It used to be the charm of the original Master League that you could unravel a story about the ups and downs of your team over months, each milestone building on top of the each other to form a sort of coherent second reality. It sounds silly now that I am older but I used to play imaginary post-match interviews in my head with Castolo or Miranda after a particularly tight match. IOW, the whole thing kept on living on outside of the actual game environment.

There is a thread here titled "ML adventures thread". That's what these games are about to me: Vehicles for our imagination. Sadly, PES ML has gotten a bit shallow over the years, there is a sort of detachment that perhaps comes through the lack of licenses or new ideas or the identikit playing style of your adversaries, but in FIFA Career I had a very exciting season with Newcastle. I won the Premiership against ManCity on the last match day with a late goal by Perez. There was drama, like a bad injury of Diamé which took him out 8 months, Ritchie scored a beautiful, decisive finesse curler from outside the box, and I lost both matches against ManCity. I REMEMBER these things as if they really took place (talking about weirdos, huh?). I then bought Higuain for 70 million and he turned out to be the waste of space that he is in real life. This mix of real aspects (Premiership, Higuain) and the imaginations you add yourself (Newcastle winning anything) is what makes offline still appealing to me. I can't find this online (which is not to say that it eventually exists).

I think the same mechanism is behind the success of TrueBrits and the like, in that they create their own very intriguing stories. Only difference: rather than keeping them in their head like we did, they post them on Youtube. Given by the followers they have, I am confident that offline will still be a factor in the years to come, because the kids who now get off on FUT will eventually get older as well.
 
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What a great read @Rodchenko . A lot of passion in that post. That sense of remembering what games were, and how we created them to be our own - without actually needing them to be created by anyone else, was a driving force behind my approach as well.

I think the best thing I ever did with a video game was report my experiences on my BAL player from PES 2009. I built a story on a whim, and just rolled with it, posting updates on operation sports. I've tried to revive it off and on - then on again, but it may not ever be as original as when I was really in the thick of some creative space. Probably the most fun I've had, and I am not sure I could pull of what I did 10+ years ago.

Here's the original thread:
https://forums.operationsports.com/...0-something-making-lam-matteo-pes-2009-a.html

Then, my attempt to revive the career using the newer versions of PES, which ultimately let me down because of their own terrible gameplay:




And finally, I just made him a manager again in PES 2019, probably my last attempt in reviving this character:

 
I just dug up and revisited my demo video and I'm not sure why, but the animation transitions look much more human (no jitters). Must be the speed?

The weight/gravity just seems much more believable than whatever we have now. The time it takes to turn. The power of the resulting pass in relationship to the leg swing and contact. Just. Looks. More. Believable.


Somehow I think the current speed of player animation and weight of pass, weight of body, and how much time it takes to move everything (ball or body)...is just seems more game-y. It's just not as tactile

It also helps that everything seems looser (PA0 was more "free/loose/difficult" than it is now)

And that the catchup bug is even less. U can actually see in the midfield, if someone is behind the ball, they stay behind the ball. Don't see any speed boost to make it possible to catch up with the play/pass. If the field is open, it kinda stays open. So it's like positioning is more important than it is now.

I'm seeing some passes in the midfield that just feels like players are actually caught out of position and they're really out of the play because of their lax positioning

I really wish the game stayed like that. Makes more sense, if initial positioning is poor u're kinda going to suffer a chain of consequences (oh how I wish this version was in 10v10)

Also, without those speed boosts coming from behind the ball, collisions happen a lot less frequent. Just feels like the space is asking us to play football.

And I remember how the demo felt. The possession durations were longer, it wasn't so easy to just press and win the ball back from random collisions. If u lose the ball, it will be at least a few touches later before u get a chance to take it back

Not like now, u lose the ball, and there are times u can win the ball back the next touch. The press currently is still far too quick
 
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vxcmplx said:
I just dug up and revisited my demo video and I'm not sure why, but the animation transitions look much more human (no jitters). Must be the speed?

The weight/gravity just seems much more believable than whatever we have now. The time it takes to turn. The power of the resulting pass in relationship to the leg swing and contact. Just. Looks. More. Believable.


Somehow I think the current speed of player animation and weight of pass, weight of body, and how much time it takes to move everything (ball or body)...is just seems more game-y. It's just not as tactile

It also helps that everything seems looser (PA0 was more "free/loose/difficult" than it is now)

And that the catchup bug is even less. U can actually see in the midfield, if someone is behind the ball, they stay behind the ball. Don't see any speed boost to make it possible to catch up with the play/pass. If the field is open, it kinda stays open. So it's like positioning is more important than it is now.

I'm seeing some passes in the midfield that just feels like players are actually caught out of position and they're really out of the play because of their lax positioning

I really wish the game stayed like that. Makes more sense, if initial positioning is poor u're kinda going to suffer a chain of consequences (oh how I wish this version was in 10v10)

Also, without those speed boosts coming from behind the ball, collisions happen a lot less frequent. Just feels like the space is asking us to play football.

And I remember how the demo felt. The possession durations were longer, it wasn't so easy to just press and win the ball back from random collisions. If u lose the ball, it will be at least a few touches later before u get a chance to take it back

Not like now, u lose the ball, and there are times u can win the ball back the next touch. The press currently is still far too quick
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Comparing it to the header compilation on page 243 i can´t see why speed and animation should be any different or even worse than the demo, especially if you put it down to -1 or -2 speed level.
 
Lami said:
Lol :D

I had my stories and imaginations, but never went that far :D
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Full nostalgic with that avatar. Konami is no more that one when Seabass had a vision and lead Pes with that vision.

Now Seabass is still there but mostly supervisionining the project, that means doing nothing for the project, but they still have him because Japanese companies are like this, they keep their developers even when they do nothing really productive.
 
@Matt10 & @Rodchenko
Thank you guys for these posts. They were brilliant read and brought back memories.
I was similar when I was playing old Master League.

I never thought about it this way, but maybe thats where my main problem with online gaming is. It doesnt have a soul.

I mentioned World of Warcraft as the only online game that I really got into.
Your posts would also explain why that happened.
I loved the moments, where I was fishing in a lake, as a low level mongrel, and some high level player was passing by, coming from far away lands that I've never seen and could not go to, at this point.
Or when I was high level and stopped another high level from bullying a low one.
They were the essence of that game. I could create my own story there.

Majority of online games these days dont trigger our imagination. Its just "pew! pew! pew!" - and then next round. It doesnt have any depth to it.

Now back to Pes19 and its sad to see what left from our Master League. The pre-season tournament is odd and doesnt fit in. We shouldnt be meeting huge teams when we are starting with low teams.
Everything is shallow and its hard to even create a story around it in our heads.
Ironically, the only thing left, that sort of triggers a bit of the old feeling for me, are regens. I can still pretend 16 year old Totti is Francescos son. :LOL:
 
Rodchenko said:
I see were you are coming from. I also agree that there is nothing worse than losing to a machine, which is why the scripting in PES (and in FIFA) is all the more infuriating.

However, I am a guy with a knack for narratives. I love good stories. I love when a game allows you to weave real elements together with your own fabrications into your very unique, but somehow authentic story. Online (as far as I can tell) doesn't really lend itself to that. It's too fragmented and short-lived and it's too much about the player and not enough about the teams.

It used to be the charm of the original Master League that you could unravel a story about the ups and downs of your team over months, each milestone building on top of the each other to form a sort of coherent second reality. It sounds silly now that I am older but I used to play imaginary post-match interviews in my head with Castolo or Miranda after a particularly tight match. IOW, the whole thing kept on living on outside of the actual game environment.

There is a thread here titled "ML adventures thread". That's what these games are about to me: Vehicles for our imagination. Sadly, PES ML has gotten a bit shallow over the years, there is a sort of detachment that perhaps comes through the lack of licenses or new ideas or the identikit playing style of your adversaries, but in FIFA Career I had a very exciting season with Newcastle. I won the Premiership against ManCity on the last match day with a late goal by Perez. There was drama, like a bad injury of Diamé which took him out 8 months, Ritchie scored a beautiful, decisive finesse curler from outside the box, and I lost both matches against ManCity. I REMEMBER these things as if they really took place (talking about weirdos, huh?). I then bought Higuain for 70 million and he turned out to be the waste of space that he is in real life. This mix of real aspects (Premiership, Higuain) and the imaginations you add yourself (Newcastle winning anything) is what makes offline still appealing to me. I can't find this online (which is not to say that it eventually exists).

I think the same mechanism is behind the success of TrueBrits and the like, in that they create their own very intriguing stories. Only difference: rather than keeping them in their head like we did, they post them on Youtube. Given by the followers they have, I am confident that offline will still be a factor in the years to come, because the kids who now get off on FUT will eventually get older as well.
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good read, imo. i am the same reg. stories build in my head when i play offline. nothing better than my imagination creating some nice stories and the action on the pitch underlines them. :)
your comment woke up some nice memories i had in my head from back in the PS2 days. i love to drift away in the past and think about these days... when i was much younger! Ivarov, Espimas, Castolo.... :D
we have some stuff in common i guess.

on the other current topic, "offline vs online": it was said that online play adds more variety as the opponent is human and not AI (wich uses same few pattern). i agree to some part... but what about those human player relying on a few attack pattern too!? seen that a lot, be it online or couch coop! a lot of human player seems to be "simple" as the AI. so this pro point for online gaming is a little "washed out" to me.
sure, it can be better as humans can learn and change behaviour (the PES AI only can change when they add code or alter the available) much quicker and noticable. and dont get me started on adaptive or learning AI. we had that feature in PES, might be still in there, but never really noticed it on the pitch. maybe placebo did fool me a few times back then. ;)

but its good to see and read those stories like ours and others above. same to @Matt10 ! i like to swim in a pool of (good) memories! :D
 
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Ameppe said:
Full nostalgic with that avatar. Konami is no more that one when Seabass had a vision and lead Pes with that vision.

Now Seabass is still there but mostly supervisionining the project, that means doing nothing for the project, but they still have him because Japanese companies are like this, they keep their developers even when they do nothing really productive.
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i personally believe there is no dedicated pes development team, i believe the game gets passed on in bits and pieces to different people in small doses for 10 months, look at pes 19 patch for example there was one patch where the keepers come off there line and then the next patch they are glued back same shit goes to EA, this years game if your hanging for AI advancements and a deep ML development your gona be extremely disappointed, but i think alot of people have learned there lesson with konami knowing now they bring out alot of false promises and features that wont be in the game for another 6-8 months.
 
So, maybe the game doesn't suck afterall...
Maybe it's us that got old and bitter.
Maybe kids between 6 and 12 years old (those who aren't playing FIFA, obviously) are still making stories up in their minds, post-match interviews, and all of that? The only difference is they are probably making up stories about black balls in MyClub instead of getting your first decent player in Master League.
 
Something just hit me. Perhaps this new PES team will never know what us the old players want, because we dont now if they play PES at that time with the same passion as us. Well, they simply can launch the game and play it now but its not the same. Perhaps only Seabass could give a little touch of the old Winning Eleven to this game.
 
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The game has no fouls,penalties,injuries and every attack is identical... I even tried to make subs at the 75th minute but couldn't coz the play didn't stop till the final whistle...Shambles of a game that any generation would laugh at if they actually possess half a brain.

The solution is to hand the offline modes to the community, With sliders & customizability and all the tools to tailor their experience (As we're doing right now)...And concentrate on taking advantage of young kids' love for the game by scamming them with a rigged experience.
 
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Chuny said:
So, maybe the game doesn't suck afterall...
Maybe it's us that got old and bitter
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Did we, though?
If thats the case, why do I love RdR2 that much, with all its faults? Coz it has some depth, immersion, a world that you can sink into.
I know sport games are different. It's not that easy to create a decent base to a nice story and to keep you interested.
But there are other sport games that people play here and really like them. NBA be one of them. Or even this tennis game, where people cant win single match for months, yet still playing it and love it, coz it has its own story, stadium creator, lots of content and its challenging without the feel of cheating from AI..
Pes took too many shortcuts for many years and they stripped its soul to a point, where there is not much left.
 
Rodchenko said:
but I used to play imaginary post-match interviews in my head with Castolo or Miranda after a particularly tight match. IOW, the whole thing kept on living on outside of the actual game environment.
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This! I was doing the same thing after I felt so excited after my last ML game. I was speaking to myself pretending I'm one of the players from my team having a post-match interview for the television. Ney, to widen my imagination even more I was creating sport news lookalike articles on a physical (later on in Photoshop) piece of paper where I was describing best actions of the game and summarizing last ML fixture (stating all yellow cards received and details such as stadiums' capacity or the name of referees - usually fully made up as I had no clue of real referees' names). I was commenting the games with a bit weird fake headphones on with a pen taped into it pretending a real set used by real commentators I've seen on tele one day.

I couldn't sleep at night when I recalled myself that there are another exciting games to be played day after.

Also, I can remember that we could use our ML saved squad in training mode, so obviously I was doing 2 or 3 (2,3 hours long) training sessions for my players between the games each day (free kicks, shots from own half without the keeper - as there was an option to take keeper off, penalties etc).. And I was writing down all the results off those training sessions (who scored the most goals, who had a good form etc). Then, basing on such information I was able to select the best XI for the next game.

Absolutely fantastic times which I miss so much. I didn't have to worry about anything else what was around me at all, that whole imagination created in my head thanks to that what I could see on 12" tele transferred me into my own footy world I was in for a long, long time until I've lost that big excitement and hype about the football and gaming, unfortunately.

Golden memories..
 
Rodchenko said:
Oh yes... There was this LB, he had low stats (like 62 or something) and was a sub by default, but he was amazing down the wing and a good dribbler. What was his name? Eddington?
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yes Eddington! bald headed scottish defense man! :D

i prefered Vornander in defense as he was german (bet he still is!) and had skills that suited my needs. :D Eddington was more about offensive skills (LB, DMF, LW, afair).
oh man, i could get lost right now.... :BOP:

edit: i wish we had the old crew back in ML (not as managers but players)!! but then (even more), ML needs an overhaul!
 
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Chuny said:
So, maybe the game doesn't suck afterall...
Maybe it's us that got old and bitter.
Maybe kids between 6 and 12 years old (those who aren't playing FIFA, obviously) are still making stories up in their minds, post-match interviews, and all of that? The only difference is they are probably making up stories about black balls in MyClub instead of getting your first decent player in Master League.
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I think there is definitely some truth in this. I mean Matt10 made stories about Pes 2009 back in the day but I don't think that Pes 2009 is a better game than 2019. I think it's a combination of both. Of course Pes 2019 is nowhere near todays standards or the expectation I had back then how it will be. But I also think that if I was 15 again like I was when I played Pes 6 (24/7) I would enjoy Pes 2019 a lot more.
 
PRO_TOO said:
i prefered Vornander in defense as he was german (bet he still is!)
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Vonander is now boss of a shabby fitness club in Castrop-Rauxel barely making an end‘s meet. They didn’t pay him enough in those days to secure a good early retirement. He‘s still fondly looking back, though.

Another fun side aspect was to invent their first names, since Konami only gave them initials. So it was Lucas Vrany or Quentin Arcas etc. Forgot the initials of Eddington. I think it was an S.? Sean? Steve?
 
PRO_TOO said:
Found em all: https://pes.neoseeker.com/wiki/Master_League_Default_Players
:D
Good times!!!
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Lol... Stromer.. I forgot about that fellow. Totally useless. Never got any playtime, terminated his contract right away.

Those were the times when Konami‘s nerdiness was still cool. Now it‘s just pathetic. Goios doing the Ronaldo signature celebration in a nod to the three kiddies who accidentally end up in ML each year. It‘s all so sad.
 
After long time playing, i can say, don't like at all..

Too hard and unreal on legend mode and sometimes players is slow to respond.

Hate tactics mode in formation mode

Really is not good.

Love PES, but this serials i don't like...
 
Rodchenko said:
Lol... Stromer.. I forgot about that fellow. Totally useless. Never got any playtime, terminated his contract right away.

Those were the times when Konami‘s nerdiness was still cool. Now it‘s just pathetic. Goios doing the Ronaldo signature celebration in a nod to the three kiddies who accidentally end up in ML each year. It‘s all so sad.
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Yeah man, them were the days.
I hate the fact that they took those players out of the ML. These new ones just don't have soul.
Eddingson was this bald heart of a lion that held my team together. I usually depended on Valery (left back), Espinas and Castolo until I could afford to buy someone who could actually play at a professional level. But I always appreciated the original eleven, kept some of them and gave them minutes in cup games. I actually let Castolo or another survivor get some minutes in the Champions League finals as a captain to see them carrying the trophy as a thank you for all they gave to the team!
 
james goblin said:
Yeah man, them were the days.
I hate the fact that they took those players out of the ML. These new ones just don't have soul.
Eddingson was this bald heart of a lion that held my team together. I usually depended on Valery (left back), Espinas and Castolo until I could afford to buy someone who could actually play at a professional level. But I always appreciated the original eleven, kept some of them and gave them minutes in cup games. I actually let Castolo or another survivor get some minutes in the Champions League finals as a captain to see them carrying the trophy as a thank you for all they gave to the team!
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:LOVE: THIS!!
 
Im about 9 or 10 games into my 2nd season in my Seria A master league and im noticing a difference in how my team feel, defenders are actualy winning the ball and taking up good positions its as if someone has flicked a switch. Had a 2-2 , 1-1, draws then a 0-2 defeat to Napoli when they knicked 2 late goals. Still a wee bit of the inevitable about the AI's goals although i felt i made mistakes rather than being outright cheated, i can handle that.
 
philla said:
Comparing it to the header compilation on page 243 i can´t see why speed and animation should be any different or even worse than the demo, especially if you put it down to -1 or -2 speed level.
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I play online, so that option isn't available. Maybe if they tone it down to -1, that'd be something.

The pressure is something else you won't experience if you play offline

Ball holding animations are more jittery now in the current version/update, than it was in the demo. For the sake of "responsiveness"? Not sure. Players are not supposed to take the next action before the first action is finished. It feels like the jitters come from rushing animations before they are fully played-out/completed. Not game breaking, but less immersive/fluid-looking definitely

I guess this is more noticeable in ball holding/dribbling animations, where you stack input commands one after another. Header animation is more like a singular action.
 
What do you guys think.. how many copies of Pes does Konami have to sell to stay alive in terms of Pes? (I know they do other stuff too)
I ask this because the sales seem to be decreasing a lot the past years if the numbers of "vgchartz" are right.
I am pretty surprised that Pes 19 sold worse than Pes 18 apparently because I thought that Pes 19 got way more attention for example on youtube. And here in germany it already has as many reviews on amazon as Pes 18 has and it's only January.
 
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