The Cycling Thread

Re: TOUR DE FRANCE 2010

I know winning brings great rewards but does the individual deep down feel proud of themselves when they resort to cheating to win ?

I used to watch the road racing and Tour's but not for a few years as I constantly am questioning myself how many of these competitor's are taking illegal substances.

Same for track and field athletics. Take the instance of Dwayne Chambers for instance and Ohorougou.

Weightlifting is another tarnished sport. As for doping in North American sports they almost have had an ambivalent attitude towards it in baseball and American football.

I'm sure there are less competitors who cheat as opposed to the mess there was a decade ago thanks to the new testing procedures.

However news stories like these whether or not they are true continue to damage the sport.

I'll stick with track cycling seeing as we also do rather well at it Pendleton, Hoy etc. :SMUG:
 
Re: TOUR DE FRANCE 2010

Sad news to all Cycling fans: Belgian rider Wouter Weylandt has died at the age of 26 at Passo del Bocco after crash in the 3rd stage of Giro d'Italia.

wouter.jpg


RIP Wouter.


Off-topic: I know it isn't the perfect timing, so my apologizes for that, but I just think it's better to rename this thread into Cycling Thread or something else as we used to talk about cycling as whole and not only the Tour.
 
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Re: TOUR DE FRANCE 2010

I've seen the images (i was looking at the stage): pure horror...
RIP Wouter

His wife is pregnant.
 
Re: TOUR DE FRANCE 2010

Sincere condolences. It must be more prominent in Belgium where you love road cycling.

It has an uncanny similarity to the loss of Fabio Casartelli. As then I am sure the teams and riders will club together to honour him and help his wife and unborn child.

RIP.
 
Somehow I missed to watch the stage and when I saw the news I couldn't believe. Terrible terrible news for all of us fans of this beautiful sport, and specially for the Belgian people like albi said. Oh so sad, just in the same week the Portuguese nation had the immense privilege to receive in Évora Belgian greatest legend Eddy Merckx.

Condolences to his family. Certainly his colleagues will help his wife and the child.

Thanks to the mod who changed the title's topic. I hope we start talking about victories and glory from now, I love Giro but, sadly, this episode will mark this year's edition until the end.
 
That's awful, i learned that i was in class, i was shocked. I am not a big cycling fan, it is just a french tradition to follow cycling, but this is absolutely shocking. Condolences for his family. RIP. 26 is far too young to die, even for a passion.
 
what a terrible news. i wasn't watching the "tappa" as i was at work. just heard on the news now. i'm glad italian tv decided not to show any image of the accident (out of respect for his family). they blurred the guy's face as soon as they realised how serious the accident was.
i'm so sad about this guy, his parents, his wife, wich, just to make things even more tragic, if that's even possible, was pregnant.

riposi in pace :((
 
Worse news possible for the world of cyclism, and specially for his family and friends. My sincere condolences, it's very very sad. This relatively unknown cyclists are the ones that make the pack and risk everything to deliver us a good show. We already knew they are legends, every one of them. But today, Wouter has paid a price too big for his efforts. This only makes me respect a lot more all this guys.

RIP.
 
drekkard, Weylandt was a very good rider. He won stages in both Giro and Vuelta (he died just one year after he won the same stage in last year's Giro, the bitter irony).
In seven seasons he had 21 wins.

The Giro is my favourite bike race, but now i have questions about rthe security of the riders...
 
Of course he was Gerd! I meant he was unknown to the mass media and most of the fans. And about the security, I know it's part of the sport, but I always have a bad time and suffer a lot when I see them going down the hills at 80-90 km/h. I don't think there's any possible solution to prevent accidents like this one. Most of the time we're not fully aware of what they endure to do what they do.
 
Ok, i misunderstood you drekkard, i'm sorry.
This Giro is particularly (exagerated?) tough drekkard, imo the riders have to climb too many tough mountains (Zoncolan, Finestre in particular) and that is not a good thing in a sport where drugs are a huge problem.
Furthermore there are too many participants in this Giro (209 instead of the usual 200). I'm in favour of teams of maximally 5 riders...this makes the the race more secure and less easier to control for the teams, hence a more unpredictable race...
 
drekkard said:
I know it's part of the sport, but I always have a bad time and suffer a lot when I see them going down the hills at 80-90 km/h. I don't think there's any possible solution to prevent accidents like this one. Most of the time we're not fully aware of what they endure to do what they do.
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yep. i still remember how frightening it was to watch pantani storming down the galibier (under the rain) in '98 tour de france.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIIxJCEPfco&feature=related

Gerd, i don't think it's a security issue. that "discesa" (how do u say "discesa" in english??? by discesa i mean "coming down from a mountain") was one of the easiest to face. it was a technical discesa, very well shaped. the weather conditions were great and the asphalt was great aswell. there are far more dangerous "discese", not only in the giro, but even in the tour. it was a tragic fatality.

the giro is indeed the toughest stage competitions of them all, but then again, its charm is strictly related to its mountains. historical stages like the zoncolan or the mortirolo are were legends were made.
the mountain stages are the heart and soul of the giro and they also reflect the peculiar conception italians have of this sport (wich is conceived by italians as an extreme challenge to fatigue and human limits. a display of courage, tenacity and will).

having said that, tough doesn't necessarily equals to "more dangerous". u obviously know much better than me that the main risk factors are not related to how steep a mountain is. asphalt conditions, weather and the shape of the stage itself are the main risk factors. so a less steep stage can be far more dangerous than, say, the dolomiti stages.

Gerd said:
This Giro is particularly (exagerated?) tough drekkard, imo the riders have to climb too many tough mountains (Zoncolan, Finestre in particular) and that is not a good thing in a sport where drugs are a huge problem.
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yep, but making the stages easier to handle wouldn't have any impact on doping. cyclists would still recurr to doping, even if they didn't have to face any mountain at all (just to prevail on each others).
besides changing the nature of the giro just to deprive cyclists of an excuse to recurr to doping would be like killing the giro itself.
would u make a marathon shorter just to persuade runners not to dope themselves? :))

today's stage will be "neutralized". it's gonna be some sort of a funeral procession to honor weylandt's memory. and all the money prizes will go weylandt's family.
 
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I've had the same discussion on a cycling forum where people are really verbally attacking me Ben.

You deserve to get more explanation from me, i will try (this is not easy in English).
I hav two issues with the Giro (my favourite race, you know that).

One is a security issue.
There are too many riders. Zomegnan asked the UCI to allow 209 riders in this Giro this is way too much in the very nervous first stages. As a matter of fact, Belgian press showed a message from Weylandt to his coach, saying that he did not feel save in the bunch of this Giro (this was after the second stage i think). Since a couple of years i want smaller teams in the races. Now you have teams of 9 riders. I would allow maximum 6 riders (ideally 5 riders in a team). That way you have less riders (and perhaps even a couple of extra teams), so the race becomes "safer". On top of that with teams of 5 or 6 riders, it becomes extremely difficult to control the race...hence more chances for breakways, hence more suspense.

The second issue has nothing to do with security or Weyland's unfortunate death. Since a couple of years IMO the Giro is too difficult. I love the Italian mountains (as you know i once climbed some of them with my bike). I love mountains like the Gavia, the Mortirolo, the Stelvio and others. The problem is double. First of all Zomegnan is searching "new" spectacular mountains like the Zoncolan (extremy steep), the Kronplatz (which is the last km's not even a real road, it is a mountain path for people who want to ski) and the Finestre (no decent roads). The last years Zomegnan is putting too much of these special things in the Giro. This year that is Zoncolan, Finestre and the Strade Bianchi...
Besides that there are way too many difficult climbs in the Giro. This is not good for the suspense.
Take this year. This year Contador is the favourite of the race. Cycling is a very physical sport and the chance that the favourite wins is something like 95%. If you put too much extremely difficult stages in the Giro...this will only favour the strongest rider...the difference between the best rider and the rest of the pack will only increase.

Lastly i don't agree with your argument about performance enhancing drugs...the Giro is like a marathon run in the mountains were there are no decent roads...that is exagerated imo.

To be fair i must say that i'm somewhat hypocrite towards all this, because i love watching the mountain stages over mountains passes like the Zoncolan and the Kronplatz.

I hope you get my point...

Edit: i've corrected some of the They are embarrassing. I'm sorry.
 
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Gerd said:
....Since a couple of years i want smaller teams in the races. Now you have teams of 9 riders. I would allow maximum 6 riders (ideally 5 riders in a team). That way you have less riders (and perhaps even a couple of extra teams), so the race becomes "safer". On top of that with teams of 5 or 6 riders, it becomes extremely difficult to control the race...hence more chances for breakways, hence more suspense.......
....Besides that there are way too many difficult climbs in the Giro. This is not good for the suspense. Take this year. This year Contador is the favourite of the race. Cycling is a very physical sport and the chance that the favourite wins is something like 95%. If you put too much extremely difficult stages in the Giro...this will only favour the strongest rider...the difference between the best rider and the rest of the pack will only increase.
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wow! i never thought of that. your points actually make perfect sense.
while i was reading your suggestion about shortening the teams, the first objection that came into my mind was "but with smaller teams it will be a lot more complicated to handle the race for the teams themselves".... but then i kept reading and i suddenly realised that might actually be a great thing (precisely for the reason u mentioned).
and also your second point (about the stages being a bit too hard) makes perfect sense. :))
 
I do agree with Gerd on the number of runners for team and the point about extreme difficulty. It would lessen a bit the danger, though the danger will always remain there, unfortunately it's inherent to the sport.

Though at the same time, having less control of the race could imply a lot more "nervousness" in the pack, something that would increase danger again in certain conditionsd. I don't know, actually. But something should be done to reduce the pack, that's a must.

I remember a lot of falls in which I put my hands on my head that would have been hardly abvoided by any measure we can think of now. Descendings are just too dangerous, but going through better roads with less people surely would decrease the danger a bit. That should apply to all events, not particularly the Giro. I'm really an ignorant of the roads they go by.
 
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Another "hard to endure" decision related to cyclism today. Contador has been declared guilty of doping and suspended for 2 years. Additionally he has to pay about 4-5 M€.

It doesn't matter much my personal opinion about whether he actually doped . Personally, I think ALL of the best cyclist are doped in a way or another, but that's not the case right now.

What strikes me a lot is HOW the TAS tribunal has declared him guilty. Basically they admit that they CAN'T PROVE he doped. Clearly as that. They say that there isn't any real proof that he did, and base the sentence in the probabilities that he doped.

So they decided the sentence based on probabilities, and we're not talking about a clear case of 90% of probabilities here, some experts say it's impossible to determine. Not facts.

It doesn't matter what you think about Contador. A tribunal CAN'T judge based on probabilities! There must be FACTS to suspend someone! This is yet another bad decision for cyclism.

At the same time, they have absolved Armstrong because, though there are some dubious things, there are no facts to condemn him. So WTF! You condemn someone without facts but absolve someone else because there aren't any facts! There is no logic behind it!

It's feels as if they needed to condemn Contador no matter what and there was a big political interest in doing so. I really don't know where this sport is going anymore.

I can think for myself he was doped, but really the greatest experts in the world can't prove it. If the principle of presumed innocence is lost I don't know what's left in this sport tribunals.
 
Yeah, this judgement by CAS is as ridiculous as all top cyclist claiming they are clean. It is really going down with cycling in the last years. Me and some of my friends lost all ambitions even to watch just one single race. This is a sport full of lies and cheating on both sides, so for me no more cycling... :(
 
I knew you would post this one of these days Alex.
I have mixed feelings about this all.
I agree with you that the verdict is unfair. In justice, the court should prove that the accused is guilty of a "crime", and not (like here) the other way round. Basically Contador got sentenced because he could not prove that he was innocent.
The sentence is also completely ridiculous, IMO considering the verdict, he should have got a real two year ban and not an half-hearted sentence. The sentence is an indication that the verdict is unfair.
So as a human being and democrat i'm outraged with the verdict.

As a big cycling fan, i'm over the moon with all this. I have no doubt whatsoever that Contador is a big fraud like most (but not all) champions. Since 1970, there have been two clean Tour de France winners: Lucien Van Impe in 1976 and Cadel Evans in 2011. I'm also fairly sure that there are quite a few (or a lot) cyclists who are racing clean. So in the intrest of the sport, what happened now is fantastic. Finally a court instance had the guts to penalize an high profile rider (what a shame that this week USA justice gave up on the biggest fraud of all, Lance Armstrong).

Spain also did not any favours to Contador. Spain was known to be the walhalla of drug trafficking because until (i think) 2007 the country had laws that were too liberal (and it is no coïncidence that Armstrong stopped his carreer the year Spain altered it's legislation, is European home base was in Gerona, Spain). The reaction in Spain about the Contador case is also totally wrong. It is time for Spain to do some introspection. IMO there is a culture of unfairness around sports in Spain (look at all the drugs in cycling: Valverde, Sevilla, Heras - look at the financial doping a club like Real Madrid got, look at how Valencia is on the verge of bankrupt and can outclass a financially sound Racing Genk in the CL, look at the results in athletics in the 90's...). As long as this culture of unfairness continues to exist, there will always be questions around Spanish sports achievements (and that is unfair towards the athletes and teams who won clean). This may sound racist, but i can assure you that i like Spain and Spanish cyclists (Rubiera is one of my all-time favourites)

As for Alberto being clean: let's not laugh. There are dozens of smoking guns against him. But on top of that, one of my best friends works in cycling, he has worked for Armstrongs and Contadors team. Both teams used blood doping. What happens is that in the off-season the riders take micro injections of EPO and then drain their own blood. This blood is then stocked in freezers and transfused in the riders body months later when they have important races.

Armstrong and Contador were extremely succesfull because they were talented (there is no doubt about that), because they work hard, because Johan Bruyneel (their team leader) prepares everything meticulously and because this team had as first team the know how to use doping in a safe way (safe for health, but also safe concerning the chance that they get caught).

It saddens me to say that this know how is purely Belgian. Cyclism is a very sick sports.
 
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i completely agree with Gerd here. i sincerely believe contador was everything but clean, but this verdict is just ridiculous. can't say i'm surprised though. the TAS is by all means a ridiculous organization.

i hear also ulrich got "pinched".
 
jan ulrich is another example of cheating and lies in cycling.
until the end he denied all contacts to dr. fuentes and denied doping as well. but as soon as there are some proofs everything that is proofable will be conceded, but not more.
it's a shame - he mentioned that he was under big pressure and he wanted to comeback and wanted to win the tour de france - so he doped.
but 1997 he was clean as well as in the following years when he arrived in 2nd place behind lance dopestrong ..eeehm armstrong.

it's quite clear that all of them were doped. it's really some kind of bad acting in such cases. it is like an discovered secret that was handled like a gentlemen agreement...

on the one hand i like watching cycling for many years - especially the tour de france. this was really exciting.
but now i am a little bit angry that i spent so much time to watch that cheaters...

the funniest thing is that nearly all of the dopers continued after their suspension like nothing happened before.
normally they should have suspended them for their lifetime...
 
Jan Ullrich is a sad, stupid hero.
In 96, 97 and 98 the Telekom team experimented with EPO and it really became very, very dangerous. Doctors had to wake up Ullrich, Riis and co in the middle of the night because their blood became very dangerous (sorry i can't explain this in English, basicly the blood became life threatening thick) and they had to ride bike on rolls (the way cyclists train in winter) in order to make the blood less thick...IMO this is really sad.

The same thing happened in the infamous Gewiss team (Berzin, Furlan, Argentin and team mates).
 
Yes, I agree with all of you, But I don't see the way to save cyclism. I honestly think all of the best ones are clearly doped, it doesnt help to condemn one of them now and then, specially like this...

About Spain being a paradise for doping, I think that was in the early 90s, but the same happened in France, USA and other countries. The regulations in Spain have always been too weak and important operations against doping have found a wall in the press and institutions.

Gerd says its almost a cultural things. I must correct him: it's BASICALLY a cultural thing. It would make for a very long post, but there are things we have in common with other mediterranean countries, and are really hard to combat. I feel hopeless when I see the levels of corruption we have in this country at all levels. Even Marta Dominguez was absolved when she jned the right wing party!!

But I also think that the media are exagerating things a lot and making Spain worse than it should. There have been LOTS of doping cases in cyclism from very diverse nationalities, But certain media like the french press are trying to turn it into a war. They are now talking about practically any Spanish sportsman as a doped puppet and that's going too far. The same way that not all the cyclists in the pack are doped.

jesus, I dont think there's a single NBA player who dont dope like an animal! But there's a total blackout of media about it. I wish there was a better way to fight doping and cheaters, and the first step should be doing some kind of international comittee with clear rules and clean and fair processes. Doping should imply a lifetime ban and should be proved in a solid and legal way.
 
drekkard said:
Yes, I agree with all of you, But I don't see the way to save cyclism. I honestly think all of the best ones are clearly doped, it doesnt help to condemn one of them now and then, specially like this...

About Spain being a paradise for doping, I think that was in the early 90s, but the same happened in France, USA and other countries. The regulations in Spain have always been too weak and important operations against doping have found a wall in the press and institutions.

Gerd says its almost a cultural things. I must correct him: it's BASICALLY a cultural thing. It would make for a very long post, but there are things we have in common with other mediterranean countries, and are really hard to combat. I feel hopeless when I see the levels of corruption we have in this country at all levels. Even Marta Dominguez was absolved when she jned the right wing party!!

But I also think that the media are exagerating things a lot and making Spain worse than it should. There have been LOTS of doping cases in cyclism from very diverse nationalities, But certain media like the french press are trying to turn it into a war. They are now talking about practically any Spanish sportsman as a doped puppet and that's going too far. The same way that not all the cyclists in the pack are doped.

jesus, I dont think there's a single NBA player who dont dope like an animal! But there's a total blackout of media about it. I wish there was a better way to fight doping and cheaters, and the first step should be doing some kind of international comittee with clear rules and clean and fair processes. Doping should imply a lifetime ban and should be proved in a solid and legal way.
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huh? bro first off saying nba and associating an nba player with an "animal" is borderline offensive and leans towards racisim or ignorance(. You realize that calling black people animals or comparing them to them is fairly offensive. I see your posts and i personally dont think you would ever mean that, im just giving you my perspective on how that might be perceived. The NBA was the first profesional sport to have drug testing, with the exception of marijuna, now they test for that. Im not exactly sure why you think all NBA players dope. Most americans would never associate doping and the nba, it seems to me super prevelent in football and baseball. Im not saying nba players dont use drugs, i just dont see it being a epedimic that your making it out to be. I know nothing about cycling, just htat gerd feels strongly that armstrong is a heavy doper. If everyone doped i guess lance is the best of the dopers...
 
Lance benefitted from the best organization and the best know how. But he was also a fantastic athlete...let's not forget that.
I never liked him because he ahd the guts to criticize other cyclists when they were found out (i remember the Raimondas Rumsas case, but there were other cases), knowing that he doped himself too...i didn't like that at all.

Cyclism is hopeless. There is a sort of omerta in cyclism, every single rider who has the guts to talk about doping is completely shut out...
But we are all to blame. Contest like Vuelta (Spain), Giro (Italy) or Tour (France) are the toughest sports contests in the world. Nothing comes even remote close to those 3. If you look at the mountains and the average speed during a 3 week contest, then you have to say that this is insane.

On this site most people don't follow cyclism and they only know 3 races: the Tour de France, the World Championships and (perhaps) Paris-Roubaix. Besides those races there are lots of other great races, but winning a stage in the Tour attracts more publicity (worldwide) than winning Giro or Vuelta or fantastic races like Liège-Bastogne-Liège or the Giro di Lombardia. Nobody here knows Paris-Nice, the Vuelta a Catalunya...all fantastic races....

The fact that the Tour de France attracts 90% of the worldwide publicity is a very bad thing for cycling and for the struggle against drugs. At the start you get 200 riders who all want to win a stage and that gives way too much nervosity and competition...You could compare the nervosity to the start of a Formula 1 race, but this lasts 3 weeks, whereas in Formula 1 it lasts a couple of minutes...the intensity is comparable to the final of the 100 metres at the Olympics, only the race lasts more than 3000 kilometres over mountians that are higher than 2000 metres...when i was younger i climbed a couple of these mountains. I did one a day and rested a couple of days before attacking the next and i could ride my own (very slow) tempo. Cyclists climb 3 or 4 mountains a day in a race...
 
gomito#10 said:
huh? bro first off saying nba and associating an nba player with an "animal" is borderline offensive and leans towards racisim or ignorance(. You realize that calling black people animals or comparing them to them is fairly offensive. I see your posts and i personally dont think you would ever mean that, im just giving you my perspective on how that might be perceived. The NBA was the first profesional sport to have drug testing, with the exception of marijuna, now they test for that. Im not exactly sure why you think all NBA players dope. Most americans would never associate doping and the nba, it seems to me super prevelent in football and baseball. Im not saying nba players dont use drugs, i just dont see it being a epedimic that your making it out to be. I know nothing about cycling, just htat gerd feels strongly that armstrong is a heavy doper. If everyone doped i guess lance is the best of the dopers...
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Wow! You completely misunderstood me or I really screwed my english. Saying someone is like in animal in Spanish, in this context, means they are very athletic and powerful, and nothing remotely racist! :CONFUSE:

Nothing to do with what you understood, of course! Besides,as far as I know in the NBA there are players of all races and nationalities, so how the hell could it be racist to say that I think they all dope? Just like cyclists, and as Gerd says, its impossible to endure things like Tour or Giro without any kind of medical help.

Personally I think NBA players arent that clean. Its impossible to perform like that for a season, with back to back matches. You have to agree with me that a lot of players seem just too powerful. I dont mean ALL of them really, but most of the best players, if you get me. Sorry for using generalizations, thats my fault.

The proof is comparing players from different eras. Watch the most powerful player of the 80s and compare it with current players.

I dont think that tests can assure much nowadays, with very sophisticated methods of doping. Thats why I always have a special keen on non musculated players. For example, I prefer Durant over Lebron, or any player that wins because of skill and brains rather than rough power.
 
gomito, i like NBA basket, but TBH i don't know nothin about it.
I must say that in Europe we have (perhaps wrong) the image that there are lots of drugs in all American sports, that they are tolerated albeit not encouraged...but to be honest, i haven't got a clue about those sports...
 
drekkard said:
Wow! You completely misunderstood me or I really screwed my english. Saying someone is like in animal in Spanish, in this context, means they are very athletic and powerful, and nothing remotely racist! :CONFUSE:

Nothing to do with what you understood, of course! Besides,as far as I know in the NBA there are players of all races and nationalities, so how the hell could it be racist to say that I think they all dope? Just like cyclists, and as Gerd says, its impossible to endure things like Tour or Giro without any kind of medical help.

Personally I think NBA players arent that clean. Its impossible to perform like that for a season, with back to back matches. You have to agree with me that a lot of players seem just too powerful. I dont mean ALL of them really, but most of the best players, if you get me. Sorry for using generalizations, thats my fault.

The proof is comparing players from different eras. Watch the most powerful player of the 80s and compare it with current players.

I dont think that tests can assure much nowadays, with very sophisticated methods of doping. Thats why I always have a special keen on non musculated players. For example, I prefer Durant over Lebron, or any player that wins because of skill and brains rather than rough power.
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nba is %90 black, so maybe when i think of nba, i tend to think of black atheletes, heck maybe that is racist. Comparing an animal to an nba player then to me, means comparing and animal to a black person. Now the reason that has a ignorant tone here in america, is that many stupid white people had this notion that slaves were "bred" like animals to be superior slaves, and that is why blacks are better atheletes then whites. Yet there is little proof to back this ridiculous theory up. I dont think your racisit, i just think spanish culture is very different in many contexts... As far as your thinking, look man, nba players rareley play an entire season, even lebron. Some nights they just walk around the court. The drug testing in the nba is very strong. The proof you speak of, does not work for me. Todays athlete's have better access to weight trainers, nutritionist, etc...
They are paid ten fold more, there is more incentive for them to be the best athletes they can be. In the 80's you rarely had 6 foot 4 guards, now there common place. You cant really tell me that steroids or drugs will make you taller(once you reach 18)? Lebron is a freak, he is not common. Same with d howard. Your taking two of the greatest atheletes in the history of man and trying to make that the standard in the nba? Even gerd admits lance had access to the best trainers, systems, nutrition in the world... In america if ther is money to be made, we dont go cheap... our top college gyms and training staff would crush the facilities and trainers of the majority of the premeire league..... and thats not even professional... this is what happens in a country which is driven by profit above all else... good or bad
 
gerd said:
gomito, i like NBA basket, but TBH i don't know nothin about it.
I must say that in Europe we have (perhaps wrong) the image that there are lots of drugs in all American sports, that they are tolerated albeit not encouraged...but to be honest, i haven't got a clue about those sports...
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this was true in baseball and football, but the nba has been a model since ther early 80's were this was not true..
 
Well gomito, in fact I did a search and the best ctranslation for the original catalan (catalan is my mother tongue, not spanish) statement would have been that they are athletic beasts. But I wonder that cultural contexts change a lot the meaning and above all the intention of things.

About the NBA and doping, I guess the major part gets before they get professionals. I know stories about professional basketball players in Europe that got doped to get taller, in fact its a common practice all over the world. You give hormones to a guy to stimulate the growing phase of the body and you can get almost 5cms taller. But maybe Thats an old story and I am simply talking without knowñedge.

I know there is doping in practically all sports when you want to get to the top level, and my PERSONAL oppinion is that some of NBA players are doped. I know that they have an elite of nutritionists, doctors and trainers, same as in top football, but to me that doesnt change a thing, there is a clear limit of how a natural body can get, but as I say its my personal oppinion and I may be very wrong. I think baseball and american football and hockey are sports where a lot of players dope, and I dont know why the nba may be different.

I clearly doubt that the nba players pass more drug controls than cyclists. In fact, cyclism is one of the most obsesively controlled sports. And even in cyclism is bloody hard to demonstrate that someone has doped. Personally I think that Contador has doped, but he did 50 controls that didnt reflect it last season. Why would NBA players be that different to othe elite sports?

PS: Doping doesnt necessarily imply syringes, blood transfussion or steroids! You can alter someones body in a lot of ways.
When I was 12 and played football i was asked to take creatinina to improve my constitution. Back then it wasnt doping, but it was considered so 5 years after. In Italy, Creatinina was allowed until ten years ago. Zidane confessed he was taking creatinina to improve muscle weight untipl it was forbideden. At the same time , taking creatinina in Spain was forbidden, so peopple would resort to ther ways of gaining muscle.

Nowadays there are treatments that will make you faster, stronger and doesnt involve steroids. In sports that move SO MUCH money, I highly doubt top players are clean. Maybe its just that I am a negative person and I always presume the worst. So dont take me that seriously, gomito, I admire all those players anyway, and as I said I love players like
Durant, Nash, Rose and Rondo. The same way I enjoy ciclysm even in its current state!
 
I largely agree with drekkard's last post.
It's an illusion thinking that doping is typically for cycling. And if it's that difficult to find doping in the most controlled sport, then onbe could ask what happens in less controlled sport.

The NBA also strikes me as more professional as most cycling teams (there is still a stunning amount of amateurism and improvisation in cycling, a team like Lotto was completely revolutionized by Evans for example, and in the end Evans left because he still thought they were not professional enough...this was the team that last season had the best cyclist in the world).

I'm not saying that the NBA has a drug problem, because i haven't got a clue. All i'm saying is that i doubt any sport is clean...
 
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