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The Retro-PES Corner

3 November 2009
England
Liverpool FC
@MafiaMurderBag , thanks for the excellent feedback on later PES editions, which I stayed away from almost totally.
Yeah this is part of the edict of Konami facing the consequences of not evolving quick enough when FIFA turned the table around '08 - '14. By the time Konami had started to modernize the franchise from PES 2011, A lot of football gamers had no idea as they were already committed to FIFA and trusted their product and at least they were getting what they paid for. Konami were still pretty much under a rock community wise and had trouble learning why they started losing the trust of their fans. So in essence Konami could've had a similar reputation with PES 2011-13 being the football gamers choice in the PS3 era but a lot of the damage was done by then in terms of word on the street
Still my wet dream is, watch you streaming some MyClub/FuT, offering people redeem codes for PES/FIFA coins!!! :P :P
In a perfect world where the anonymous online community was as pleasant and as civil to play against as the PES 6 AI is, but credit to some of those who have a following streaming online gaming, but i don't have the patience/tolerance and i don't think it'd be very entertaining watching me cuss & moan at the tedium of it to be honest.

Some kids might like it, but when you've got about 250 YouTubers doing the same formulaic screeching and entitled pack opening gimmick demanding people SMASH THAT LIKE BUTTON, You might as well try to offer something unique and be the alternative.
 

miue20sev

Non-League
2 December 2011
I think actually once they introduced passing assistance settings last gen it became easier to keep the ball. With PS2 engine passing which basically lasted until PES 2010, passing was still calculated based on stats on context so there was still an element of timing, patience and a little bit of randomness to the possession play which simulated the ebb & flow of a match to be honest. Once they started to give the user a lot more control over the passing with assistance settings and power bars, It's more down to the skills of the player with the controller, more about it being an actual game then a football simulation.

I never used to have the patience to play the modern games on manual as i found it to dissatisfying but once i started lowering the difficulty and increasing the match length, I found pure manual to be the best way to play the modern games as it presents more of a challenge and you CAN lose possession and you can't score in 3 passes with your eyes close.

That is, on PES 2019 until the AI get's possession and it's guaranteed counter attack city but that's another story.
I think actually once they introduced passing assistance settings last gen it became easier to keep the ball. With PS2 engine passing which basically lasted until PES 2010, passing was still calculated based on stats on context so there was still an element of timing, patience and a little bit of randomness to the possession play which simulated the ebb & flow of a match to be honest. Once they started to give the user a lot more control over the passing with assistance settings and power bars, It's more down to the skills of the player with the controller, more about it being an actual game then a football simulation.

I never used to have the patience to play the modern games on manual as i found it to dissatisfying but once i started lowering the difficulty and increasing the match length, I found pure manual to be the best way to play the modern games as it presents more of a challenge and you CAN lose possession and you can't score in 3 passes with your eyes close.

That is, on PES 2019 until the AI get's possession and it's guaranteed counter attack city but that's another story.
+1 to al of these comments... especially pes 2019, sooooooooo annoying :(
 

miguelfcp

Premiership
27 June 2009
(...)
Some kids might like it, but when you've got about 250 YouTubers doing the same formulaic screeching and entitled pack opening gimmick demanding people SMASH THAT LIKE BUTTON, You might as well try to offer something unique and be the alternative.
After watching your PES6 FIFAWC02 videos, and your wonderful, professional-like match commentary on it...I don't know if you ever considered this, but a stream of you playing a game (preferably, a retro-PES one :SMOKIN:) and commentating it simultaneously would be amazing.
 
3 November 2009
England
Liverpool FC
After watching your PES6 FIFAWC02 videos, and your wonderful, professional-like match commentary on it...I don't know if you ever considered this, but a stream of you playing a game (preferably, a retro-PES one :SMOKIN:) and commentating it simultaneously would be amazing.
Thanks, appreciate it. It's something I've considered but it's more down to time, I might do it for fun a few times before i can figure out a schedule when i'm not gonna be interrupted by the wife or daughter and one when people are actually gonna be awake to watch it haha.

But more importantly, people have been leaving comments about the actual game too... There's slowly becoming realization that, past the stigma of it being an old game game, it actually plays very realistically and provides just as much drama and moments that resemble football than the modern games. It's nice to help raise awareness that there's good footballing experiences to be unearthed in these older games for the lapsed fans.
 

WhoAteMeDinner

PES Puritan
28 April 2018
@MafiaMurderBag and @miguelfcp , I remember a while back miggy posting some video of a beach football game, (we were discussing old school five a side football games) and there was this Brazilian dude giving a hilarious commentary on Brazil v Portugal. The game was a bit weird, blue haze that made the Portuguese play worse even though it was meant to be a power-up.
:BLINK::BLINK::BLINK:
 

loco

Schaduwspits
12 December 2002
Playing Winning Eleven 8 International, lately.

I must say, with all the faults and lack of life in player movements the game has, it has a good old soul: fouls, unpredictability, players playing true to the majority of their skills and special skills, GK's with personality, extremely rare to non-existent AI scripted routines (both for player and CPU cheese).
 

WhoAteMeDinner

PES Puritan
28 April 2018
Playing Winning Eleven 8 International, lately.

I must say, with all the faults and lack of life in player movements the game has, it has a good old soul: fouls, unpredictability, players playing true to the majority of their skills and special skills, GK's with personality, extremely rare to non-existent AI scripted routines (both for player and CPU cheese).
@loco , that is pretty much the main factor that had kept me away from most later PES games. In PES 2, 3 and 4, if a player had a special ability star for say: reaction, if he was a forward, he would react like a cat to any loose balls and penalty area ping pong and smash the ball into the net while all other players were stood flat-footed.

Now how was it a good idea of Konami to get rid of that kind of direct stats to gameplay connection in later editions ?

:R1:R1:R1
 

miguelfcp

Premiership
27 June 2009
@MafiaMurderBag: Your last paragraph, I wish I could upvote it more. I've seen people "crying in despair" because, according to them, when neither the most modern PES and FIFA are able to provide a decent footballing experience, they're left "without any decent football games to play for the year". I've never understood this mentality. There's a catalog filled with countless football games that have been released over the last 20-25 years, surely you'll find any that you actually like to play...?

I've handled people with that stigma, in real-life as well. When they tell me "oh, it's an old game, oh graphics, oh offline..." I just tell them to sit, shut up, take the controller and we'll play a match, get back to me in 15/20 minutes. That always does the trick. You can't play a match of, say, PES3 and not be blown away by the experience; the game could be in black and white, fantasy players instead of real ones, doesn't matter: the experience is, overall, magical.

@WhoAteMeDinner: Pro Beach Soccer, and the mighty blue halo...clearly one of the classic moments of retro sports gaming. Weird, cool, and absolutely unexpected.

@loco: I've never played WE8I, but if it's anything like PES4, I agree with the "soul" you mentioned the game has. It just feels like classic PES. If it didn't have the hyperagile player movement and if it had better shooting, it could've easily been the best PES ever. Actually, PES3 had nailed both of those issues, Konami just had to leave them untouched and not absolutely ruin in like they ended up doing...
 

WhoAteMeDinner

PES Puritan
28 April 2018
By better shooting in PES 3, what @miguelfcp , means is that scoring long range goals from outside the box is a rare event and conversely the COM team will regularly smash goals in from thirty plus yards just to make you feel.....

:PUKE::PUKE::PUKE:

(my favourite emoji thingy by far).
 
3 November 2009
England
Liverpool FC
@locoNow how was it a good idea of Konami to get rid of that kind of direct stats to gameplay connection in later editions ?
I don't know what happened but even when they went into next gen with '08 - '10, although they were still PS2 engine PES in essence, they just didn't have quite the same spark that made the players so individual & unique. The key stats were still there, but they never behaved the same way they did on PS2.

You can't play a match of, say, PES3 and not be blown away by the experience; the game could be in black and white, fantasy players instead of real ones, doesn't matter: the experience is, overall, magical.
Completley agree. I think if you surveyed 10 people & allowed them to play the game and offer their thoughts privately & honestly, without the influence of others in the room to encourage each other to scoff and disagree, There's no way all 10 people would come away and say it was shit. Unless... They were under 16 probably.

By better shooting in PES 3, what @miguelfcp , means is that scoring long range goals from outside the box is a rare event and conversely the COM team will regularly smash goals in from thirty plus yards just to make you feel.....
It's something i was very, very pleasantly surprised about when returning to PES 2011 last week, The AI attempts shots from distance it usually has no right trying in it's strict, coded regiment. Combined with reliable keepers that year too it produces some real moments of convincing competition.

Here's what i've been working on the last couple of weeks, gonna get the first episode out on Saturday.

UEFA Champions League 05/06 on PES 5. Playing as all 32 teams, had to improvise on a couple that were in the tournament but not in the game/patch i played with. This is the most time I've spent with this game since I've played it at release as i'm more used to PES 6 & WE9LE. And let me tell you, It's. Hard.

 

loco

Schaduwspits
12 December 2002
I thought I was hallucinating when I saw it, but this actually happened in one match in WE8I vs the CPU:

I committed a foul near the opponent's area and the CPU controlled defender, Ivan Córdoba (right-footed with wfa/wff 6), took the indirect free kick with his left foot.
 

Flipper the Priest

"I'm glad I got out of bed today!"
15 July 2003
Really enjoying this thread. I'm at a bit of a crossroads with my football gaming at the minute. I've a 2019 Master League on the go that I'm liking, having only really gotten into the latest version last month. But that will no doubt wane.

My PS2 took a pasting from PES to PES6. I really can't remember, though, which one I preferred and will go back to. My hunch is that it was 5, 4, 6, 3, 2, 1. Might try to pick up some of the titles on PC and try this patching lark. And I'm up for rolling back the clock and doing some editing!
 

mattmid

Champions League
15 December 2011
I thought I was hallucinating when I saw it, but this actually happened in one match in WE8I vs the CPU:

I committed a foul near the opponent's area and the CPU controlled defender, Ivan Córdoba (right-footed with wfa/wff 6), took the indirect free kick with his left foot.

The only player I've ever seen take direct free kicks in real life with either foot is Santi Corzola when he was at Arsenal. Great to see he made it back playing as well after a horrific time his injury.
 

WhoAteMeDinner

PES Puritan
28 April 2018
@slamsoze , mate, in a sub-forum dedicated to Retro-Pes, a game with its very soul rooted in Japan. Manga and Anime is ON TOPIC always....

:BY:

Always thought the big lad Totoro from "My Neighbour Totoro" would make a mighty centre forward in PES 2 and PES 3.
 

mattmid

Champions League
15 December 2011
I'm wondering if that removal of @Ciais post you put up on reddit can really be because of external links because you put exactly the same links to evo and retro on the Odyssey post on reddit yet that wasn't removed and there was no ban. Either way it's ridiculous.
 

loco

Schaduwspits
12 December 2002
The only player I've ever seen take direct free kicks in real life with either foot is Santi Corzola when he was at Arsenal. Great to see he made it back playing as well after a horrific time his injury.
Wesley Sneijder (early Ajax days), Diego Forlán, Ronald Waterreus, Paolo Maldini, Mark Iuliano too in direct and indirect free kicks.
 

miguelfcp

Premiership
27 June 2009
@mattmid: I can't be sure, but on the Odyssey posts I wrote on r/WEPES, I think I even linked to the main page of RSC...this time though, both links were exclusively to 1. Ciais' post on evoweb's FIFA16 thread - where he posted the most recent downloadable version of the gameplay - and 2. to his article on RSC. Like I said there, if you can't post any external links, then how will you get people to download the mod? :D

@MafiaMurderBag: What is a Champions League? Is it like a poorman's version of the WEFA Championships? :SMOKIN:
 
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3 November 2009
England
Liverpool FC
Great articles once again. RE: FIFA 16, It's on the bucket list, i've heard lots of accounts of this being the holy grail of modern football gaming and it's come down to the community to fix it, as is usually the case, particularly with FIFA. Sliders can make a game playable to an extent on consoles but seems more to provide temporary relief to FIFA's chronic symptoms, Sounds like tweaking the games database and ini files on PC seems more productive to curing FIFA's strain of the immersion breaking disease. I'll fire it up when i need that healthy break from Retro PES.

RE: Reddit: It's admirable that you wanted to enlighten the FIFA community and raise awareness of something that is an alternative but also that you've considered a compromise; Understanding that FIFA fans are a stubborn bunch and a loyal to the FIFA brand so pitching Retro Football to them is almost out of the question, that's too much a drastic step, you've got to wean them off of the current brainwashing subscription that is FIFA 19. So why not still play FIFA, but FIFA 16 with mods? Right? Yeah i get where you're coming from 100%. Your not walking into a devout FIFA worshipers household and shitting on the table by pitching a new religion and insulting your host. It's a sound strategy! But, This is Reddit we're talking about, It's a cesspool and their moderators have napoleon complexes and love to assert power, but i'll get to that in a minute.

Second reason is one i can see their point of view, even though yes, you and i know there's no profit to be made from clicking your blog and the video is merely a demonstration and not a plug, but i get the reasoning that, If they allow your Video, then they set a precedent and would have to allow every-bodies screechy FuT & pack opening plugs on the sub and well, yeah fuck that for sure.

Now here's my opinion. I think even if your post stayed up there and it's kind of established by the 2 Reddit posts you used on your blog as examples... The people of the FIFA sub aren't interested in a realistic football game and i don't think they play FIFA for the football. It's very much a FuT centered sub. Which means these people don't want gratification from realistic and rewarding football fundamentals. They want internet points. Just like i mentioned in my myClub rants, it's a community (If you can call it that, more like a hive mind of vessels) of toxic kids to subscribe to the, win at all costs, piss your opponent off by any means necessary, race to the top of a fictional online table while being conned into spending real money, believing it'll improve your chances of getting there mentality.

This is EA's target demographic, A slow plodding game of tactical sparring and shooting error isn't going to compel their audience with Attention Deficit Disorder to stick around, learn to master the game and spend their money. These are gamers being raised in a generation of gaming that teaches them to subscribe to a game for instant gratification, and to spend more money to have your moment, to get your "victory" and to do it again. I sound like i'm looking down on them and all but for fucks sake, how much of a sucker do you have to be to realise you're not seeing any return on your investment unless your a Youtuber with 500k Subs and 50k views per video?

Your players, coins & points don't even roll over to the next game in the franchise - What a joke and an insult to your intelligence!

It should come as no surprise that Reddit's FIFA sub is one motivated by internet points which goes hand in hand with the platforms own version of internet points in the form of it's karma system which promotes lots of disingenuous posts from Redditors that almost guarantee upvotes and karma farming because once again, the hive-mind believe they would be abnormal if they didn't agree.

Oh and i had a chuckle at the compelling level of engagement the mod gave you when he removed your post. unsurprising.
 
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3 November 2009
England
Liverpool FC
The Dinner really feels like an analogue neanderthal, trapped in digital, millennial, metrosexual, hipster world.
Not really sure what the following are:

My Club, Reddit, FuT or Add Stick.

Guess the 21st century is not for me.

:COAT::COAT::COAT:
Edited out a few grammer mistakes. When i put ADD, i meant Attention Deficit Disorder.
 

miguelfcp

Premiership
27 June 2009
On that subject, it took me four years and hundreds of matches to find out exactly which was Porto's Jesus Corona's dominant foot, and I only got to figure it out recently because he started taking corner kicks with his right one. :D

@MafiaMurderBag: Thanks man. After watching Ciais' 'trailer' of the mod, it's impossible not to be impressed...I said it before: given the current trends of football gaming, it's very much possible that projects like his will end up being the most realistic simulations of actual football ever released...a scary thought indeed, but probable nevertheless.

As for the reddit situation, (and yes, the mods really showed how much they cared about my content with that message of theirs...) I did arrive on the scene - to quote the mighty Roddy Piper - "to chew some bubblegum and kick some ass", then I ran out of bubblegum :ROCK: as I started the post saying that both PES and FIFA19 were "mindless fun", so I wasn't very smooth about it :DD.
What I saw of Ciais' mod impressed much more than any of the latest football games, I thought it deserved as much exposure as it could get - and I was going to help with the little I could offer.
I did know what we were expecting on r/FIFA: nowadays it's a subreddit for Ultimate Team with the occasional funny memes, media (photos/videos almost always about UT as well...) and rants like those two I showed. Nothing interesting goes on there, it's just fast-food content for a fast-food gaming scene. I honestly believed Ciais' mod would be a hit there, not only because of the actual merits behind his work, but mainly because it'd be a complete novelty on a place that's aching for something to pull them out of that mediocrity.

But perhaps you're right, we're expecting too much of the typical modern gamer. I saw this when I posted on r/WEPES about Project Odyssey: expected it to be a hit for its novelty factor, but it wasn't, and as always the community kept running on myClub posts and...rants.
The culture of modern gaming is beyond saving at this point. You pretty much nailed it in your post. It's not about the fun of playing a game, that's old news, now it's about having humans on a fake world and have them competing for fake, virtual prizes while spending real money at it - and is that true, that once a new game comes out, the points accumulated beforehand don't carry on? My God, it's even worse than I thought! Modern gaming is a scam.

I never thought it would come down to this, but it seems to be up to our generation of gamers to preserve a culture of positive, fun, passionate but rational way of gaming. I don't want a son of mine to grow up in an environment where he'll be at all times tempted to fall in this microtransaction pit, as I've seen how others are dealing with it. They hate everything about the platform, they begun to hate the gameplay itself, but can't leave because they're addicted. I don't want this for him. Instead, I want him to be challenging his dad for a ISS Pro Evo match, and whoever loses has to do the dishes.
 

WhoAteMeDinner

PES Puritan
28 April 2018
@mattmid: I can't be sure, but on the Odyssey posts I wrote on r/WEPES, I think I even linked to the main page of RSC...this time though, both links were exclusively to 1. Ciais' post on evoweb's FIFA16 thread - where he posted the most recent downloadable version of the gameplay - and 2. to his article on RSC. Like I said there, if you can't post any external links, then how will you get people to download the mod? :D

@MafiaMurderBag: What is a Champions League? Is it like a poorman's version of the WEFA Championships? :SMOKIN:

Miggy, it is a sort of poor man's ML Division 2 Cup.
 
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