The Retro-PES Corner

[Early PES footy fan]

I altered the stats in PES 5 a bit too much, and also started meddling with a second patched version and got to a point where I no longer had an enjoyable PES 5 to play. Rather than bother reinstalling/undoing all my damage, I stopped playing for the last few weeks, but yesterdayI decided to try PES 3 again. I had previously had problems with the analogue stick direction not relating accurately to what was happening on screen, but I reinstalled it this time and it seems to work properly. That said, there are often occasions when a pass that was meant to be angled goes straight forwards or across the pitch, but mostly the manual passing is working well. It is a very different game to PES 5 though, and it will take me some time to get used to the dribbling and the flow of the game. My first match on 3 star difficulty, as Ireland against Scotland, ended 2-0 to the Scots and it wasn't until the second half that I managed to have a shot! I had more luck after quickly starting a Master League though, winning 3-2 against Fulham. I think I prefer the menu system of PES 3 to that of PES 5. What I really like so far on my return to PES 3 though is the way tackles, feints and similar incidents look; they seem more realistic and attractive to my eyes than in PES 5 (a game which I like very much). Like I say though, getting used to the slightly more crude dribbling in PES 3 will take time.

 

[mattmid]

Yeah that's kinda the conclusion I have come to. You can do it in older games right or am I making that up?
It's possible via the in game overlay but is just easier if it's all set up beforehand. I was hoping there was something that you could add into the map file but I guess there isn't unfortunately.

Thanks for the reply though

Yeah that's right, you could set it in the stadium map in the older games and as long as it was set for home stadium on the match screen it would play at that stadium. What I found a pain with that in 13 was forgetting to do it and after a certain screen if I remember correctly you can still change it on the overlay but it doesn't change it in the game, it's already set.

 

[geeeeee]

Next match in the Round of 16 EURO's

Spain v Scotland (me), Scotland have been excellent in this tournament playing some excellent team football. How will they do against one of the favourites? This match is another cracker.




How unlucky were Scotland After Spain's second goal McTominay took the game by the scruff of the neck and dragged his country back into the match with a fantastic team goal. I have to say that they have been one of the best teams in the tournament when it comes to passing and build up play. And they really battled well. Spain also showed character as they battled through to the next round.

 

[Flipper the Priest]

Next match in the Round of 16 EURO's

Spain v Scotland (me), Scotland have been excellent in this tournament playing some excellent team football. How will they do against one of the favourites? This match is another cracker.




How unlucky were Scotland After Spain's second goal McTominay took the game by the scruff of the neck and dragged his country back into the match with a fantastic team goal. I have to say that they have been one of the best teams in the tournament when it comes to passing and build up play. And they really battled well. Spain also showed character as they battled through to the next round.

Spoiler

Gutted. Seems familiar though!: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/scotland/9078030.stm

 

[geeeeee]

Spoiler

Gutted. Seems familiar though!: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/scotland/9078030.stm

Spoiler

That's bizarre there was even an own goal too. Sorry Flipper I really tried in that game. It was so tense but when Scotland brought it back to 2-2 I really thought the winner was coming. There was one point (you may have seen it) when, at 2-2, McTominay had a shot that just went over the bar when he could have played in his team mate. I think i panicked )

Also, I just found out where the original Spoiler option is rather than the 'should have gone to specsavers' blurry one.

 

[goalgerd]

And a team in Indonesia called Semen Padang

should have seen that coming.....

 

[ToZanarkand]

I altered the stats in PES 5 a bit too much, and also started meddling with a second patched version and got to a point where I no longer had an enjoyable PES 5 to play. Rather than bother reinstalling/undoing all my damage, I stopped playing for the last few weeks, but yesterdayI decided to try PES 3 again. I had previously had problems with the analogue stick direction not relating accurately to what was happening on screen, but I reinstalled it this time and it seems to work properly. That said, there are often occasions when a pass that was meant to be angled goes straight forwards or across the pitch, but mostly the manual passing is working well. It is a very different game to PES 5 though, and it will take me some time to get used to the dribbling and the flow of the game. My first match on 3 star difficulty, as Ireland against Scotland, ended 2-0 to the Scots and it wasn't until the second half that I managed to have a shot! I had more luck after quickly starting a Master League though, winning 3-2 against Fulham. I think I prefer the menu system of PES 3 to that of PES 5. What I really like so far on my return to PES 3 though is the way tackles, feints and similar incidents look; they seem more realistic and attractive to my eyes than in PES 5 (a game which I like very much). Like I say though, getting used to the slightly more crude dribbling in PES 3 will take time.

PES 3 looks so good. PES 5 is my favourite for gameplay and whilst it does look impressive in its own way, it lacks the polish of PES 3.

PES 5 looks like a bleak English game in the winter. Everything feels quite grey and depressing, which of course isn’t helped by the empty stadiums.

PES 3 looks like a glitzy European competition. Everything looks so clean and crisp. It’s like watching the World Cup final as opposed to PES 5 feeling like an FA Cup third round replay.

I really want to get into another retro PES aside from 5, for the exact reasons I mention. I just love the gameplay of 5 though. Nothing comes close. Maybe I need to just get more used to the others. Unfortunately the Master League on 3 is pretty bare bones, but I may start up a big tournament or something.

 

[ToZanarkand]

Next match in the Round of 16 EURO's

Spain v Scotland (me), Scotland have been excellent in this tournament playing some excellent team football. How will they do against one of the favourites? This match is another cracker.




How unlucky were Scotland After Spain's second goal McTominay took the game by the scruff of the neck and dragged his country back into the match with a fantastic team goal. I have to say that they have been one of the best teams in the tournament when it comes to passing and build up play. And they really battled well. Spain also showed character as they battled through to the next round.

Spoiler

That equaliser was epic.

 

[goalgerd]

guys do any of you have the links to the program that stops pes6 from crashing when using too much data, i think ive more than maxed it out with all the new kits ive added in the last 2 weeks

thanks

 

[Saint Angelo]

I really want to get into another retro PES aside from 5, for the exact reasons I mention. I just love the gameplay of 5 though. Nothing comes close. Maybe I need to just get more used to the others. Unfortunately the Master League on 3 is pretty bare bones, but I may start up a big tournament or something.

everytime you win Div 1 in PES 3 ML you get a star on top of your logo.

what more do u want????? 🐑

PES 3 ML is lovely, also it plays a lot differently since players don't age and you dont have to worry about development. Nice change of pace!

 

[MKC]

everytime you win Div 1 in PES 3 ML you get a star on top of your logo.

Never played PES 3, but i've got to say, this feature alone makes me want to start a ML on it eventually, stars over the badge are always so fun to me, they look pretty and make me wonder about the club's titles.

In Brazil it's especially fun, there are no regulations, so you have teams using a gold star to represent a CWC title, a Brasileirão title, or even a State Championship title, the star itself doesn't give away what the title is, so you either have to know the team or do some research sometimes, which i find fun tbh, i especially love the stars with unusual colors, and the silver stars for second division titles, it's so charming to me for some reason, i can't be the only one who would play ML with custom teams and manually edit the crest to add a star for every title i won... Ok, maybe i am, but it was fun, and that's what matters i suppose.

 

[du0]

guys do any of you have the links to the program that stops pes6 from crashing when using too much data, i think ive more than maxed it out with all the new kits ive added in the last 2 weeks

thanks

https://evo-web.co.uk/threads/pes-6...nstallers-by-sany.67651/page-106#post-3645018

 

[Flipper the Priest]

Never played PES 3, but i've got to say, this feature alone makes me want to start a ML on it eventually, stars over the badge are always so fun to me, they look pretty and make me wonder about the club's titles.

In Brazil it's especially fun, there are no regulations, so you have teams using a gold star to represent a CWC title, a Brasileirão title, or even a State Championship title, the star itself doesn't give away what the title is, so you either have to know the team or do some research sometimes, which i find fun tbh, i especially love the stars with unusual colors, and the silver stars for second division titles, it's so charming to me for some reason, i can't be the only one who would play ML with custom teams and manually edit the crest to add a star for every title i won... Ok, maybe i am, but it was fun, and that's what matters i suppose.

I'd like to be regulated by FIFA. In Scotland, Aberdeen has two stars (pretty embarrassing, really, as it's for the Cup Winners' Cup and Super Cup that we won in 1983 - a great achievement for a club of this size but not worthy of stars); Celtic has one star (European Cup); and Rangers five stars (as they've won 55 titles, apparently, despite dying in 2013 and a new club starting up in their place). I've always thought it should be for 10 leagues only. Maybe a cup when a team is playing in that particular cup.

everytime you win Div 1 in PES 3 ML you get a star on top of your logo.

what more do u want????? 🐑

PES 3 ML is lovely, also it plays a lot differently since players don't age and you dont have to worry about development. Nice change of pace!

PES3 is almost like Master League light, mainly because of the lack of player growth. But that's not a criticism. As you say, it's a nice change of pace and it's really agile. Perfect ML if you don't have much time to commit to a game.

 

[du0]

The Brazilian madmen are doing it: modding Football Kingdom

 

[Flipper the Priest]

The Brazilian madmen are doing it: modding Football Kingdom

Interesting!

Actually some editing chat going down in the FK thread: https://evo-web.co.uk/threads/football-kingdom-namco.10286/page-47#post-3691144

 

[MKC]

I'd like to be regulated by FIFA. In Scotland, Aberdeen has two stars (pretty embarrassing, really, as it's for the Cup Winners' Cup and Super Cup that we won in 1983 - a great achievement for a club of this size but not worthy of stars); Celtic has one star (European Cup); and Rangers five stars (as they've won 55 titles, apparently, despite dying in 2013 and a new club starting up in their place). I've always thought it should be for 10 leagues only. Maybe a cup when a team is playing in that particular cup.

I suppose this works, it's an iconic system for sure, especially in Italy with Juve, Milan and Inter, i love it there, but idk, i guess i'm kind of biased on this topic since the club i support has 1 golden star over our crest, for our only ever league title in 1985, so that could be taken away if any regulations were set here, and let me tell you, there would be riots if that happened lol, the star has pretty much become part of the crest at this point, it almost feels wrong when i look at an image of the crest without it, and the idea that if we ever win the league again, or most likely the cup, we could add a 2nd golden star to accompany the 1st, it's exciting i think, because it's something to look forward to, it hasn't happened yet because we're absolute bottle jobs, but we'll get there someday... I hope.

 

[mattmid]

I'd like to be regulated by FIFA

I'm sure they could arrange it

In Scotland, Aberdeen has two stars (pretty embarrassing, really, as it's for the Cup Winners' Cup and Super Cup that we won in 1983 - a great achievement for a club of this size but not worthy of stars); Celtic has one star (European Cup); and Rangers five stars (as they've won 55 titles, apparently, despite dying in 2013 and a new club starting up in their place). I've always thought it should be for 10 leagues only. Maybe a cup when a team is playing in that particular cup.

I think the Cup Winners Cup is worth it to be fair, at least it's a proper (or at least was) European competition.

As to Rangers, I thought they were a different side now, as far as I can tell they've been renamed to Steven Gerrard's Rangers.

 

[TheKusanagiBlade]

PES 3 looks so good. PES 5 is my favourite for gameplay and whilst it does look impressive in its own way, it lacks the polish of PES 3.

PES 5 looks like a bleak English game in the winter. Everything feels quite grey and depressing, which of course isn’t helped by the empty stadiums.

PES 3 looks like a glitzy European competition. Everything looks so clean and crisp. It’s like watching the World Cup final as opposed to PES 5 feeling like an FA Cup third round replay.

I really want to get into another retro PES aside from 5, for the exact reasons I mention. I just love the gameplay of 5 though. Nothing comes close. Maybe I need to just get more used to the others. Unfortunately the Master League on 3 is pretty bare bones, but I may start up a big tournament or something.

It's not that the stadiums are empty, it's more that the crowd is so 2D that it disappears from the stands. xP
I liked PES 3 too, I even had an idea for the Master League, but my problem is that I notice some details too much - such as the lack of referee and linesmen during gameplay. It may seem stupid, but that seriously bugs me a bit, especially as I had gotten into PES fresh off playing the N64 ISS games and how detailed they were for the time (it did bug me on the PS1 games too, though not as much because of generational differences).

The Brazilian madmen are doing it: modding Football Kingdom

Still pretty rudimentary, but I compliment the effort. I wish I knew how to mod PS2 games so I could try something like that.
Football Kingdom is awesome, and if Bandai Namco took it seriously it could be a third option today. But I could never understand how exactly the game's modes work, which is why I haven't played it much.

 

[Meazza84]

Found a patch for the first Pro Evolution Soccer for PSX.


(I really liked how @Flipper the Priest used the broadcasting camera so I gave it a try for the first time in a PSX game).

 

[Fenomeno9]

Is there something similar to Bdfutbol that also covers English 1st division before the start of the Premier League? In bdfutbol they start only with 1992, also in transfermarkt I cannot find detailed information of the season with presences and goals etc for all teams for 90 91

 

[slamsoze]

It's not that the stadiums are empty, it's more that the crowd is so 2D that it disappears from the stands. xP
I liked PES 3 too, I even had an idea for the Master League, but my problem is that I notice some details too much - such as the lack of referee and linesmen during gameplay. It may seem stupid, but that seriously bugs me a bit, especially as I had gotten into PES fresh off playing the N64 ISS games and how detailed they were for the time (it did bug me on the PS1 games too, though not as much because of generational differences).

Still pretty rudimentary, but I compliment the effort. I wish I knew how to mod PS2 games so I could try something like that.
Football Kingdom is awesome, and if Bandai Namco took it seriously it could be a third option today. But I could never understand how exactly the game's modes work, which is why I haven't played it much.

This is so true, and we have discussed it many times in this topic.

The KCEO team (ISS) did not have the spacestellar gameplay development of KCET (ISS pro, PES), but they captured some core football match details as anyone else could do until then. Only SEGA with VIRTUAL Striker came close.

Details from the more simple like cointoss, kit color editing, to more complicated like snow, wet pitch effects, slippery field, lines men, referrers in game, 4th referre, etc.. Also an ISS,,, either 98 or 2000 had a tone of National teams, especially European section, although all fake and not any clubs, but some of that NT teams, needed years to make a reappearnce in a footy.

Or the career mode in ISS2000 N64 also, a text rpg simplified BAL mode, being the father of all BAL modes.

If I were KONAMI, and since they merged those two divisions into one, I would assign the team of Seabass fully tasked with gameplay/physics development strictly, were they were topnotch and I would assign the KCEO team, to develope the content of that hypothetical PES, game modes, details, aesthetics, rules, cuts eines, everything related.

 

[geeeeee]

Next up in the EURO's.

England (me) v Hungary, how will England do against the team that knocked Germany out in the group stage?

 

[du0]

Guys, can anyone recommend a good patch to play PES 2013 ML with?

 

[mattmid]

Is there something similar to Bdfutbol that also covers English 1st division before the start of the Premier League? In bdfutbol they start only with 1992, also in transfermarkt I cannot find detailed information of the season with presences and goals etc for all teams for 90 91

I'm afraid Football in England didn't exist before the Premier League, at least that's what sky would have you believe!

11v11 might be useful for you

example:
https://www.11v11.com/teams/aston-villa/tab/players/season/1991/

 

[Flipper the Priest]

Put this together:


You'll do worse things on your lunch break.

 

[du0]

Seeding the PESJP patch torrent for 2013 I found here: https://evo-web.co.uk/threads/pesjp-patch-2013-v3-09-ultimate-update-gameplay-tool-3-35-1861.69158/, let's grab copies for archival purpose

 

[Fenomeno9]

I'm afraid Football in England didn't exist before the Premier League, at least that's what sky would have you believe!

11v11 might be useful for you

example:
https://www.11v11.com/teams/aston-villa/tab/players/season/1991/

Thank you a lot, that is looking very useful as I am putting together squads of 16-20 players for each team of 90 91 1st division season, I don't know much about English football of that era so this kind of information helps me a lot so I learn the key players, typical starting line ups etc.

 

[MKC]

You know, i've been thinking about the state of football gaming lately, so i've decided to play some older games recently, a couple of 8bit ones, some 16bit ones... Eventually the PS1 Winning Eleven games were next on my list.

Just got done playing some Winning Eleven 3 Final Ver. after not touching it for a few months, it's just as perfect as it's always been. The first thing that strikes me is the OST in the menus, it's so iconic and feels epic, which is appropriate, since this is a World Cup game, you don't get a much more epic event that this one, it's the most important thing in the sport by far. Then there's the fact that this specific game legit had the licenses right, it's a genuine World Cup game by Konami, the kits are all accurate, which is wonderful since the 1998 World Cup kits were phenomenal, and the player names are right, it's so nice hearing the iconic Jon Kabira say the names of the legends that played in this tournament. The improvements that this version did to the standard Winning Eleven 3 are also what makes it the definitive PS1 footy game to me, most specifically the camera angles, they have a much better field of view, my favorite is the TV camera, i love these lower and more straight cameras, which is why i like the Pitch Side one the most in modern PES, tho they need to have a good visibility, and this one does, can't get enough of it.

However, while all of the things i've mentioned earlier definitely do help make this game an absolute masterpiece, the gameplay is what truly defines it's place in the franchise's history. It's just perfect, it's the gameplay that defined PES for the longest time, that made it the definitive football series over all of it's competitors for the longest time, easy to learn, hard to master, basic fundamentals, but filled with nuance, stats that are clearly visible (Ronaldo's pace is simply phenomenal here, just like it was in real life at that very tournament), basic settings whose adjustments make a huge difference, and most important of all, a perfect mix of arcade and simulation.

That last part is what really got me thinking, cuz you see, in the last few years i've considered myself more of a simulation fan, which seems to be the standard in this forum, however when playing some older games, starting with the 8bit and 16bit ones, it struck me how much joy they were giving me, even tho they were very arcade, and this made me realise that my problem with modern football games isn't that they're too arcade, it's something else.

So this made me do some soul searching, as to why these older games were so much more fun to me than the modern ones, it couldn't be because they are more realistic, because overall they're not (Although in a few aspects they kind of were, which is legit pretty funny), and it finally clicked.

I'm not sure how many here are familiar with racing games, personally i'm not a fanatic or anything like that, but i've always loved Gran Turismo, a game that called itself "The Real Driving Simulator", and it always seemed fair to me, however it surprised me to see that among racing game enthusiasts this was not a real simulation, because it lacked a ton of stuff that is important to real life racing, they generally divide games in Arcade, Sim, and SimCade, the latter is something i've never heard of in any other community, however to me it's legit an important concept when discussing games.

There has never been a single football game in history which aimed at being a true simulation, for that they'd have to make 90 minutes the standard time for a match, they'd have to make the pace exactly the same as a real life match, and the market for that is just too small, so all of the PES and FIFA games we've played have all been SimCades from the start, most football games have actually, afterall, they have to fit all of the action in around 10 minutes instead of 90.

Now, here's where i'm getting at: A SimCade is always gonna feature a mix of Simulation elements and Arcade elements, therefore what makes a football game good isn't how realistic or arcade it is, a good football game is the one that makes the best choice of elements from each side, in a way that in the final product every factor chosen works in harmony with one another, cohesion is the name of the game here. Another important aspect of this cohesion argument i'm trying to make is that the game needs to have clear rules on how it works, and it needs to follow those rules, this was much easier to achieve in the past when games were more simple, and that aspect naturally makes them have an edge over their modern iterations, however just because technology has advanced it doesn't mean EA and Konami can't pull it off, but for some reason they just seem to refuse.

All of the things i've listed earlier in this post are what makes the classic PES games so dear to most people, at least in my eyes, for the PS1 and PS2 titles, you'll see arcade fans loving them, and sim fans loving them, in a game like Winning Eleven 3 Final Ver. if the game isn't arcade enough for you, all you have to do is increase the speed, while if it's not sim enough for you, decreasing the speed does more than enough, because the core and fundamentals of the game are so polished and cohesive, you don't need to adjust anything drastically to see a real effect and enjoy it more, while nowadays you need to adjust a billion sliders just to make things servicable, since the fundamentals are so broken.

The problem with modern footy games, with EA and Konami, is that the choices they make when deciding if an aspect of the game needs to be more arcade or sim are just wrong and don't work in harmony with one another, so what you get is a game that always feels off no matter what your taste is, instead of being easy to learn and hard to master, they're hard to learn, especially to people who aren't very into football games, but easy to master, afterall, all you have to do is learn this year's new exploit and take advantage of it, it's what the pro players do, and more power to them, their objective is winning, and this is how you win now.

I'm just rambling at this point tbh, maybe this sounds pretty whiny overall, but these are just some things that have been going through my head after playing some legit fantastic retro games and getting so much more satisfaction out of them than the modern ones, as good as those can be in many aspects.

P.S. Winning Eleven 3 Final Ver. might be the best football game ever made, at least to me, so there goes my recommendation to everyone reading it, give this beauty a shot if you haven't already, it's worth it.

 

[mattmid]

Thank you a lot, that is looking very useful as I am putting together squads of 16-20 players for each team of 90 91 1st division season, I don't know much about English football of that era so this kind of information helps me a lot so I learn the key players, typical starting line ups etc.

If you need any help with player positions etc feel free to ask I'd probably be able to help with most of them.

 

[Silverdome94]

You know, i've been thinking about the state of football gaming lately, so i've decided to play some older games recently, a couple of 8bit ones, some 16bit ones... Eventually the PS1 Winning Eleven games were next on my list.

Just got done playing some Winning Eleven 3 Final Ver. after not touching it for a few months, it's just as perfect as it's always been. The first thing that strikes me is the OST in the menus, it's so iconic and feels epic, which is appropriate, since this is a World Cup game, you don't get a much more epic event that this one, it's the most important thing in the sport by far. Then there's the fact that this specific game legit had the licenses right, it's a genuine World Cup game by Konami, the kits are all accurate, which is wonderful since the 1998 World Cup kits were phenomenal, and the player names are right, it's so nice hearing the iconic Jon Kabira say the names of the legends that played in this tournament. The improvements that this version did to the standard Winning Eleven 3 are also what makes it the definitive PS1 footy game to me, most specifically the camera angles, they have a much better field of view, my favorite is the TV camera, i love these lower and more straight cameras, which is why i like the Pitch Side one the most in modern PES, tho they need to have a good visibility, and this one does, can't get enough of it.

However, while all of the things i've mentioned earlier definitely do help make this game an absolute masterpiece, the gameplay is what truly defines it's place in the franchise's history. It's just perfect, it's the gameplay that defined PES for the longest time, that made it the definitive football series over all of it's competitors for the longest time, easy to learn, hard to master, basic fundamentals, but filled with nuance, stats that are clearly visible (Ronaldo's pace is simply phenomenal here, just like it was in real life at that very tournament), basic settings whose adjustments make a huge difference, and most important of all, a perfect mix of arcade and simulation.

That last part is what really got me thinking, cuz you see, in the last few years i've considered myself more of a simulation fan, which seems to be the standard in this forum, however when playing some older games, starting with the 8bit and 16bit ones, it struck me how much joy they were giving me, even tho they were very arcade, and this made me realise that my problem with modern football games isn't that they're too arcade, it's something else.

So this made me do some soul searching, as to why these older games were so much more fun to me than the modern ones, it couldn't be because they are more realistic, because overall they're not (Although in a few aspects they kind of were, which is legit pretty funny), and it finally clicked.

I'm not sure how many here are familiar with racing games, personally i'm not a fanatic or anything like that, but i've always loved Gran Turismo, a game that called itself "The Real Driving Simulator", and it always seemed fair to me, however it surprised me to see that among racing game enthusiasts this was not a real simulation, because it lacked a ton of stuff that is important to real life racing, they generally divide games in Arcade, Sim, and SimCade, the latter is something i've never heard of in any other community, however to me it's legit an important concept when discussing games.

There has never been a single football game in history which aimed at being a true simulation, for that they'd have to make 90 minutes the standard time for a match, they'd have to make the pace exactly the same as a real life match, and the market for that is just too small, so all of the PES and FIFA games we've played have all been SimCades from the start, most football games have actually, afterall, they have to fit all of the action in around 10 minutes instead of 90.

Now, here's where i'm getting at: A SimCade is always gonna feature a mix of Simulation elements and Arcade elements, therefore what makes a football game good isn't how realistic or arcade it is, a good football game is the one that makes the best choice of elements from each side, in a way that in the final product every factor chosen works in harmony with one another, cohesion is the name of the game here. Another important aspect of this cohesion argument i'm trying to make is that the game needs to have clear rules on how it works, and it needs to follow those rules, this was much easier to achieve in the past when games were more simple, and that aspect naturally makes them have an edge over their modern iterations, however just because technology has advanced it doesn't mean EA and Konami can't pull it off, but for some reason they just seem to refuse.

All of the things i've listed earlier in this post are what makes the classic PES games so dear to most people, at least in my eyes, for the PS1 and PS2 titles, you'll see arcade fans loving them, and sim fans loving them, in a game like Winning Eleven 3 Final Ver. if the game isn't arcade enough for you, all you have to do is increase the speed, while if it's not sim enough for you, decreasing the speed does more than enough, because the core and fundamentals of the game are so polished and cohesive, you don't need to adjust anything drastically to see a real effect and enjoy it more, while nowadays you need to adjust a billion sliders just to make things servicable, since the fundamentals are so broken.

The problem with modern footy games, with EA and Konami, is that the choices they make when deciding if an aspect of the game needs to be more arcade or sim are just wrong and don't work in harmony with one another, so what you get is a game that always feels off no matter what your taste is, instead of being easy to learn and hard to master, they're hard to learn, especially to people who aren't very into football games, but easy to master, afterall, all you have to do is learn this year's new exploit and take advantage of it, it's what the pro players do, and more power to them, their objective is winning, and this is how you win now.

I'm just rambling at this point tbh, maybe this sounds pretty whiny overall, but these are just some things that have been going through my head after playing some legit fantastic retro games and getting so much more satisfaction out of them than the modern ones, as good as those can be in many aspects.

P.S. Winning Eleven 3 Final Ver. might be the best football game ever made, at least to me, so there goes my recommendation to everyone reading it, give this beauty a shot if you haven't already, it's worth it.

I'm on a 98 World Cup kick (oh hell, when am I not), can you share this ROM?