WE9 - Stop Saying The Game is Realistic

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Something definitely isn't right about the AI's substitution logic. I've had the CPU bring on 2 players in the first half many, many times. I know this isn't to say that this doesn't ever happen in football, but the number of times the computer has used 2 subs in the first half is really stretching it. Often the substitution is a double substitution after 25 minutes or so, and most often the score is still 0-0.

Mainly, though, I just wish the passing wasn't so poor, to be honest. I'm pleased to see that there are more stray balls now, because if you watch a real match a great deal of the transfers of possesion do occur because of missed/intercepted passes, rather than crunching tackles. However I think they took it too far. Players routinely fail to complete a short pass to a teammate nearby, or they'll wrongfoot their teammate completely from an easy ball.

The L1 through ball has also been made almost completely useless now. They took most of the loft out of the pass, so that unless you're about 40+ yars out the ball will go straight to the goalkeeper. Personally, I defintiely say it's about time they included a meter for throughballs ala Football Kingdom, and also took through passes off the 'rails' they currently seem to be on. I know there's the manual pass option, but frankly this is poorly implemented, and even Football Kingdom showed with one try that manual, 360-controlled through passes are easy to include.
 
BK_83 said:
you want real football? go to the field and play!
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That's not the point, is it? Not real enough? Join the Premiership! Don't like the passing? Play FIFA! Don't like the dissapearing crowd? Develop a better game!

The point is that other sports franchises have demonstrated, collectively, the ability to do tactics, passing, overall presentation better than Winning Eleven has, and it's not as though we need some sort of Virtual Reality holographic gaming machine until these elements will be possible. This isn't to say that Winning Eleven isn't still the best overall, it's just dissapointing that it's still behind the times in some respects, even if it's ahead of the game in others.

I agree (and sincerely hope) that most of these issues will have been resolved within the next couple of years, thanks to the new generation of consoles, but, honestly, I feel Konami could have done more to resolve some of these issues on current hardware.

There's nothing wrong with offering a little criticsm, so long as it's well articulated and isn't blind bashing.
 
I know how to get rid of all these problems with winnign eleven 9, you won't have to worry about it.








Don't play the game.
 
Benn_Black said:
They have not improved the simulation, if anything the AI is even worse. Since when do all teams defend deep and slow defenders CATCH-UP to and strip the ball off fast attackers? The AI in this game is appaling, as far as realism is concerned this game is an absolute joke compared to many other sports simulations on the market.
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Wait until PLF (or someone else) releases an updated & corrected data option file for WE9 and then see what you think about all of this. The Konami player+team data does not do the gameplay justice so let's wait and see what happens.

If you're not willing to do this then continue to moan away to your heart's content.
 
Saying that other types of sports game are more realistic is an unfair comparison. All the sports you listed and very disjointed and have a maximum of maybe 40 seconds of continuous play before the PLAY ends to determine the next play. It is a lot easier to design an AI to consider the movements of just a batter/bowler/ball in cricket/baseball, as the cosidered interactive contingent (spl?) are always at set places and have a few options on what to do. With american football, the games are based on a chosen set play, where the defence and attack both launch scripted sequences and hop they go well depending of the stats of the player and a little luck (more like a Magic the gathering style card game). In Madden you still notice the AI defenders chasing a running back and get confused and miss when a real player wouldn't.

Football is so much more complex, the game is pretty much continuous and organic in nature. Each one of your eleven players has to consider the position of all his teamates and all of the opposition AND the ball, also his capabilities with that ball (eg a tall play won't go for through runs as often as a fast player). All this number grinding takes a lot of CPU (which current consoles are running out of). The way they do it is by not considering every player, but only those within a certain range, also they have a 'bank' of sets of moves they can try (one-two for example). The reason the game slows down on jam-packed penalty boxes (more so the older games than this one) is because all the AI calculations if you watch the same moment on a replay you see that the graphics run smooth even with all 22 in a tiny area when they aren't actually thinking.

I have said elsewhere in the forums already. This itereation of the series, like most previously, is an advancement towards a better, more realistic game (bad sentence there). Yes it can be frustrating, so can watching Garcia or Traore do something stupid for Liverpool IRL. Until they have the next-gen consoles they don't have the power except on the PC. Before you say it, they can't rewrite the entire AI just for a PC version, the market isn't big enough to ignore console gamers.

Yes this game has it's short-comings, it could be better. But it's definately trying to 'be all it can be'. They haven't gone for 'the easy option', they've tried to improve. I think they have, and hope they continue to do so with each version.

Finally, remember this, for every mistake they make which is removed come the next version (hasn't happened so much recently) is a step forward in progress. Why do you think the Fifa series had so many 'UNIQUE' catch words like, passing freedom and 'off-the-ball'. It's because thay wanted to see if it improved the game (which they need to do a lot), it's didn't always do so. But at least it means each version gets better. I usually try each new versions demo, it's nowhere near WE but they are getting better also.
 
To the guys that think that the game is not realistic:
It is not possible to make a perfect AI these days with this hardware .Maybe in Playstation 3 or even 4.Butt the developers i think are more concentrated in human VS human play and they want that to be reallistic.They want to give as many options to the human players so the AI is not given as much attention.Personally i would prefer the developers to concentrate to the net code (online) of the game so we can play the game online without lags.
Another thing that i want to ask the guys who think that the game is not reallistic is how much they get paid by Electronic Arts(Fifa) to do their propagada here in ProEvo forums saying that game is not reallstic.If u believe that thing then why bother make a thread like that if u dont like playing WE with that stupid AI as u say?
 
Benn_Black said:
Rubbish. There is nothing stopping the developers from introducing several different styles of play. That's possible in American Football games so there is no excuse.
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bullshit, american football games are updated rosters and some new features added, the gameplay and AI is hardly touched, your wrong
 
Zgalski is right , Konami have made a great soccer engine but they are not experts on soccer !

So the truth is that the game is a fertile land on witch peopla like PLF can work on.

This game will have a more self breathing feeling once PLF injects his data into it.

The rest will come naturually because when every single player in the game has his own realistic stats than a match is more realistic.
 
The Power said:
Amircan football has a different KI structur as a soccer game KI. I say it again ps2 has not anough power. You dont believe..so ask someone else in a ps2 forum like IGN,gamespot...

Look at other soccer games like fifa..the KI is very bad..
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American Football is infinitely more complicated then soccer. There is no excuse. If you think the terrible AI is down to a lack of power explain why many of the gameplay flaws present in the original PSOne series are still present? For example why do CPU players over dribble by running up and down, left and right along the pitch instead of simply passing the ball? This is the single most ludicrous aspect of the AI yet hasn't been addressed in TEN YEARS.
 
csaunders said:
bullshit, american football games are updated rosters and some new features added, the gameplay and AI is hardly touched, your wrong
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Compare the American Football games from 5 years ago to today (NFL 2K5) and there is a massive improvement. With this series the same decade long flaws are present.
 
Doubla R said:
Yeah, you can change that.. apply offside rule and all that stuff..or just take offside rule off it what bothers you is that a video game team doesn't play like a real life team.
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Why should I change it? If the developers even understood the basics of this sport the gameplay would improve no end.
 
It's like people who expect pes to have a completely realistic physics engine on the ps2. That's definitely not something you would be able to buy for £40 and run on a 266 MHz processor, let alone something your average games programmer could hope to design without help from University Research departments / Government-funded High end Computing and Science teams. I couldn't truly tell you, but I think it'd be nigh on impossible to run a sophisticated, essentially open-ended AI system that can simulate human behaviour as accurately as we would wish. It could certainly be better (mind you I don#t have WE9 but I would definitely imagine it isn't 100% lifelike!), but few if any non-linear games such as sports games or RTS games can truly imitate human strategies/adaptibility. Have you played Battlefield 2 single player? A truly brilliant game, but this aspect is nowhere near the multiplayer, and even if they focussed a lot more on the single player aspect, they'd never get it anywhere near the same as playing online against 31+ other humans across the world. You might argue that FM2005 etc are very real. That's easy with an engine that's essentially a massive spreadsheet game with the occasional "lots of big circles moving a smaller circle around" 3D match engine. That isn't very realistic, is it? Yet it's easily the best football management game there is.

What I'm saying is, for what it is, WE/PES is truly the most realistic playable football series available, and I'd be amazed if you could prove me wrong.
 
Ove Kindvall said:
If you want 100% realistic: Go play football yourself... A few of you guys are forgetting that it is a game and on this moment none of the games(no matter what type) will be 100% realistic.

If you don't like how teams/country's play change their formation and strategy etc.

On this moment WE9 is the most realistic football game, let me know if there is a better game and I try it.
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The real problem is people like you jump on the bandwagon every time a new version is released and say it's the best and most realistic version yet. The flaws in the AI are so glaringly obvious even a six year old should be able to see them.

The improvements in ball physics (which were terrible), crossing, heading and more leniency from the refs is down to those of us who provide constructive criticism, those of us who e-mailed the developers not those who get a hard on over the latest irrelevant circus trick or side step manoeuvre.
 
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You can ignore the flaws by not playing the game man.... Or just play other games that has a better apperance.....
 
romagnoli said:
What I'm saying is, for what it is, WE/PES is truly the most realistic playable football series available, and I'd be amazed if you could prove me wrong.
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That is not the point. As ActionHank said other sports franchises have consistently shown improvements in all areas. Tiger Woods is as perfect a simulation as you could get, it's a phenomenal game, as is Brian Lara 2005, Colin McRae Rally 2005, Fight Night Round 2, K-1 World Grand Prix etc, etc. And whether these sports or more or less complicated is irrelevant. Soccer is the World's most popular sport and one of THE most easiest to understand so the basic, basic AI flaws are even more unforgivable.

The hardware is not the issue. People made the same excuses when this series was in it's last incarnations on the PSOne and they were wrong then just as they are now. Are you really telling me the PS2 isn't capable of handling teams with four different styles of play? The ability to make players play more offensively or defensively, make runs in certain directions, hold offside, man mark etc, etc is all in the tactics themselves. That would be a start.
 
True, the AI is very disappointing. I virtually never see an AI get booked, maybe once in a season. AI guys can just push my guy off the ball without punishment yet now I cannot go near an AI guy without foul. This is so irritating. Why did they make such a mess of the gameplay? It makes the game harder but makes the gameplay worse.

And now nearly every AI team plays perfect passing 99% of the time, no stray passes, no matter if it is Brazil or Hong Kong, they all play perfect and have world-class dribblers. It is fine when Brazil play like that, but when Hong Kong play exactly the same perfect football, it is very boring.

And now they make it harder to score by adding some new algorithm to make sure even when you make a great chance, the game just decides you don't score. That is not gameplay, that is script.

This is now a poor 1-player game.
 
This guy keeps talkin about american football, why don't u stop playing we9 and go play that football if you're satisfied with it, there's no perfect game, we9 is the closest to perfect, but if u don't like it, just either don't play it, or play it and stop whining
 
Benn_Black said:
The real problem is people like you jump on the bandwagon every time a new version is released and say it's the best and most realistic version yet. The flaws in the AI are so glaringly obvious even a six year old should be able to see them.

The improvements in ball physics (which were terrible), crossing, heading and more leniency from the refs is down to those of us who provide constructive criticism, those of us who e-mailed the developers not those who get a hard on over the latest irrelevant circus trick or side step manoeuvre.
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Do you think the A.I is better in this than WE8/PES4?
 
@ Benn_Black

Totally agree you on this. I personally HATE stuff like I'm leading 3-0 and comp defense is on a fucking 16metre line when I'm counterattackin that's ridiculous big time.

Overall, too much defensive play but I guess that's the cost of refining gameplay for now and we will se some further improvements on next edition I suppose.
 
Benn_Black said:
Compare the American Football games from 5 years ago to today (NFL 2K5) and there is a massive improvement. With this series the same decade long flaws are present.
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I play Madden Series since 1995, but the game only improve the rosters and a little graphic aspect in the last 3 version (Madden 2003, 2004 and 2005). The gameplay its identically year to year whit a minimun modifications.

WE9 is the most realistic "futbol" game at this moment. If you don´t like the game, don't play with him.

(Sorry my english is poor, I hope you undesrtad the idea).
 
eagle_eye said:
Do you think the A.I is better in this than WE8/PES4?
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I don't really know. Some have said the CPU does react depending on the score but I haven't really noticed anything different other than teams playing more defensive.
 
Molder said:
I play Madden Series since 1995, but the game only improve the rosters and a little graphic aspect in the last 3 version (Madden 2003, 2004 and 2005). The gameplay its identically year to year whit a minimun modifications.

WE9 is the most realistic "futbol" game at this moment. If you don´t like the game, don't play with him.

(Sorry my english is poor, I hope you undesrtad the idea).
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Madden sucks, the NFL2K series by SEGA is much better.
 
There is one thing I have to agree with and that's the amount of "pointless dribbling" that CPU does. All my defender would be at least 10 meters away from the CPU player who has the ball, and the player would be dribbling in the spot around in a circle cutting back and forth as if he was putting on a performance or something (and no, the player didn't have a dribbling special ability either). I just sit back and watch him dribble like an idiot until he finally gets sick of it and passes it off... this definitely something Konami needs to fix (they probably put it in to sucker players into "pressure" the CPU player and create space, but I don't fall for it).

I've talked about the "6-7 men on defense in the box" syndrome, but on one hand, I'm not surprised. They seem to program this back in every other winning eleven, for some reason. I believe We6 and 7 had this problem too.

Unfortunately Konami haven't found a way to make the CPU opponent harder without resorting to "cheating". But this is a problem with most sports games too, at the same time.
 
What a pointless discussion.:D I agree with you, Mauras - funny but pointless. If you don't like the game, play something else. See.......easy.
 
THIS GAME IS SO REALISTIC...
All the things that guy said in the first post can be done by a human player...
this game is not perfect which it will never be, but it is so more realistic than the previous version...
 
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