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World Cup 2010 - The Italy Thread - Prandelli!!!

Milanista

Mangiamoli!
Staff
19 December 2002
London & Milan
AC Milan
I thought De Rossi had a solid game against Paraguay, but was disappointing vs New Zealand and Slovakia. He seemed to play the way he played in that Roma game where Ranieri subbed him and Totti off. He was nervous, lacked confidence and was careless. I think it was more mental than anything.
 

Aboutreika18

Too Black, Too Strong
5 September 2006
That's an awful beard he's got as well, makes him look like a hobo.

I blame that for his below-par performances.
 

lo zio

International
24 October 2005
Palermo
rfu said:
Dude, that's my point Anyway, just watch Bommel play, he's having a good tournament, thus far. Albeit playing alongside De Jong
yeah, he's a good player and he's having a good tournament. he also had a good season with bayern.... but that still doesn't justify a comparison with de rossi.i mean let's put thing in perspective shall we. u say the good thing about van bommel is that he also provides "guile in attack".... let's take a look at their numbers
van bommel scored 13 goals in the last 5 years. danielle scored 33 goals in the same period. just this season, daniele scored almost the same ammount of goals (11) van bommel scored ever since he left psv (wich was 5 years ago)....
honestly, i think i'm entitled to a "wtf are u talking about?" :D

anyway, i'll repeat myself, judging individual performances of each and every italian player in theese 3 matches is plain wrong.
what we witnessed was a team collapse. it was a mental matter. yesterday we couldn't put 3 consecutive passes together.... now that's not the best possible italy, that's for sure..... but i think we can all agree theese player are still good enough to set up a 5 passes network against the likes of new zealand or slovakia, am i right?

and just to make things even more complicated, lippi went "mourinho-style" and changed our tactical display 7 times in 3 matches! how can we even try to express any sort of judgement in theese circumstances?
i mean montolivo began the match as an internal-centre in a 3 men setup.... after 20 minutes he was told to move to the right... and 30 minutes later he was told to move on the left. and that was in 1 single match!
how can we pretend to judge his performance? and every time montolivo's position was changed, also gattuso and de rossi had to adjust.

when u have to deal with so many players losing their coolness (our passing mistakes speak for themselves) and with a coach who desperately keeps changing the setup, without even giving u the time to realise what u're supposed to do on the pitch, u can't express an opinion on individuals.
coz even those few who actually were decent, had to make up for their teammates lapses.... u say de rossi was anonymous.... i can reply that he was involved in every single play that ended with a shot on goal. i wouldn't describe that as anonimous honestly.

this is a very common mistake. an entire team fails and people will always tend to look for the most important player and blame him coz "he was supposed to step up and lead the team to a victory".
some people blame diego for juventus disgraceful season... other people blamed ibrahimovic for inter loss against liverpool a few years ago in a champions league matchup.
this is just wrong.

when a team plays an average or sligtly less than average match and the leader doesn't step up and bring them to the next level, then u can blame him.
but when a team can't even put 3 passes in a row, talking about individuals makes absolutely no sense.
 

lo zio

International
24 October 2005
Palermo
albiceleste said:
This is Fabio Cannavaro's take on the reasons for the failure and what needs to be done to improve Italy's fortunes.
allow me to give u some hindsight on this matter. what cannavaro is saying here is a huge load of bullshits. the thing is lippi is being heavily criticised for leaving some of italy's best talent at home. and since he's a stubborn idiot who can't face the fact that italians were right when they complained about his callups, he said "well i don't think we have better players than the ones i brought here".
now, having said that lippi is an arrogant, stubborn idiot, cannavaro is doing the right thing here. he has to back up his coach and he can't throw shit on his teammates by saying that this wasn't the right team to bring in south africa. so he basically repeats what the coach says. that's the right thing to do for a captian and i understand why he's talking like that.
but obviously that's a huge load of bullshits. camoranesi has been off form this entire season, zambrotta has been one of the worst sidebacks in serie a this season, iaquinta has been injured for almost the entire season and cannavaro himself has been the 4th or the 4th worst cb in the entire league (and i'm not exagerating here!).
this was not the best team to bring in south africa, and yes, there were much better players to pick.
and the whole point "italy is not producing as much talent as we used to" is just ridiculous..... do u need that much talent to qualify in the easiest group in the entire world cup? do u need a team filled with world class players to handle teams such new zealand? honestly fabio, fu*k you!

the only interestint statement is this one
It's only natural to feel pressure but we were too afraid. I saw it in the faces of my team-mates."
ant that brings us back to the point i was making before about the reason of this failure and the impossibility to judge single players' performances.

we all now how important is coolness. it's not just a "performance factor". it doesn't just effect the quality of your performance. it decides wheter u will be able to perform (at all) or not. and it's not just about sport. it's something we all have to deal with. wheter u're a student or a doctor or a lawyer, when u panic, when u let anxiety get the best of u and black out, it doesn't matter how good u are at your job, u won't be able to do anything at all.
u might have studied for weeks and mastered a course. if u black out during the exam, words won't even come out of your mouth. u won't be able to reply even to question whose answers u actually know.

that also applies to sport. how many times have we seen a much better tennis player freaking out and being hammered by a weaker opponent?
well collness is even more important in football. coz, unlike tennis or a university exam, football is the result of a group effort. your performances are hugely effected by your teammates performances.
a team is like a collective being. it's like a single living entity, whose will is formed by the will of the members of that entity. it's something that transcends the individuals and assumes its own form and life.

and that form is a result of the players state of mind.
very often we hear fans complaining about a team's approach to a certain situation.... things like "our opponents were crushing us, why did they stay so deep, why didn't they realise they should have tried to move the possession line higher on the pitch".... it's not like players don't realise theese things, of course they do. but it's extremely hard to counteract to the "team's will" and overturn the flow of a game.
because that team's will, that approach, that sitting back is nothing but the result of a composite reaction. 3 or 4 players get worried about the growing pressure of their opponents and will unconsciously track back, deeper in their own midfield, as a reaction to their fear. then other players (who may not share the same fear) will have to do the same, in order to adjust their position to their teammates' position.
if the midfield moves back behind the midfield line, there's no point for the forwards to remain close to the opponent's box.... they'll never get a ball if they don't track back a little..... so the whole center of gravity of the team moves backwards. that will give the opponents even more confidence and allow them to increase the pressure even further.

we usually call this "flow" wich is actually a pretty fitting expression, coz the team's approach isn't something "stable"; it changes according to the situations. let's imagine that the team which was crushing the opponent begins to slow down because of the fatigue of 3 of their players. the other team will feel that change and that might be the opening for a change in the flow of the game.... let's say the 2 sidebacks get more confident because of the opponents tiredness.... they start pushing forward.... as a result of that the 2 cbs will move higher on the pitch.... then the 2 central midfielder will adjust their position to the 2 cbs and move in the opponent's midfield again and so will react the cf, who will get back in the opponent box.

the reaction of 2 players changed the mood of the entire team. this is how unstable, how delicate is this equilibrium. u might call it as u want: flow, mental approach, state of mind.
now if the fatigue of 2 players on the opposing side can determine such a dramatic change in the team's state of mind, what happens when 3,4 players of your team are in a complete state of panic from the very beginning of the game? if just the fear of 3 players can move the whole team 10 meters backwards on the pitch, what happens when u have 3 of your players who are completely blacking out?
well in theese cases u have.... manchester united - roma 7-1 .....or catania - palermo 5-0....... or italy-slovakia.
and u don't need all the players to back out. just 3 players in sheer panic will screw up the entire team. because 3 players blacking out is already enough to mess up any possible scheme. and it's not just that. after 20 minutes of football those 3 players will "infect" also the rest of the team. because when u realise that 3 of your teammates are so scared and under pressure and confused that they can't even make an accurate 5 meters side pass, then u will get worried as well... and it doesn't matter if 10 minutes ago u were feeling like a god, filled wth confidence..... u will inevitably step backwards to cover for your teammates lapses.
it's like a chain reaction. it will mess up the whole team. and once theese kind of situations occurr, it becomes pointless to discuss about individual performances.... u don't have a match anymore, how can u talk about performance.
how can u judge my passing game, if for the whole game i was worried some of my teammates couldn't even receive a 5 meters pass and control the ball? my worries about my teammates' condition will obviously effect my game aswell, even if i'm in a great form and feel as confident as ever.
that's why i think it's unapproriate to express judgments over single players performances in the new zealand match and the slovakia match.
once u see the players unable to make 3 pass in a row, well that ceases to be a match. u're witnessing a collective failure that makes impossible to single out any player's performance.

this is probably the worst possible scenario in a football match. when the whole team gets out of control because of the panic of some players, there's no way to turn back things... the match is as well as gone. even the coach's directive won't have any effect anymore, because once this happens the coach loses the grip on the team.
so u shouldn't ask yourself "who was the weak link?" "who had a bad performance and who did well?" this sort of question don't matter anymore. the only good question is "how did the team get to the breaking point?" and "why the coach didn't see this coming during the week?"
theese are "the right questions" to make. :))
sorry for the longest post... as usual :))
 
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PLF

Legend
2 August 2004
I'm TOTALLY with Ben on everything in the last couple pages. 100%. Took the words out of my mouth so no need for me to repeat them. Both about quality of players available that weren't picked, the legends and generation discussion and stubbornness of Lippi, etc.

In regards to De Rossi, I actually thought he was one of the better Italian players in this disappointing world cup. He didn't play great but when many players did crap, he was at least decent. Even the Quagliarella beautiful chip goal which is probably gonna become goal of tournament or something, was initiated by De Rossi's industry and his hard work to tackle ball to team-mate after his shot was blocked. Worked really hard and had some good moments and not some great ones. Pepe did decent as well and better than some like myself would've predicted. For me, Pepe and Daniele were 2 of the better Italian players then but even they weren't great or anything. Just better than most team-mates.

EDIT:
p.s. Anyone notice how much Di Natale was smiling after his empty net goal? At that point, Italy are still losing the game and very much in trouble and this guy seemed to be having the most fun in his life. Found it slightly odd. Of course after game, he cries and was truly sad.
 
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lo zio

International
24 October 2005
Palermo
p.s. Anyone notice how much Di Natale was smiling after his empty net goal? At that point, Italy are still losing the game and very much in trouble and this guy seemed to be having the most fun in his life. Found it slightly odd. Of course after game, he cries and was truly sad.
yeah, that was odd. anyway i really feel for totò. hugely talented guy, overlooked by top clubs and the national team for his entire carreer... after becoming this season capocannoniere ("top scorer") he finally had a shot to a world cup, and didn't even play as a starter.... it really says a lot about our mistakes in this world cup.
 

PLF

Legend
2 August 2004
Hahahaha true.

Toto should've started every game. When he came off the bench against Paraguay, I was screaming with joy! Lol everybody looked at me funny! :LOL:

As for Fabio Q, if I were Lippi, he wouldn't have even been in my squad, I would've cut him and kept Rossi. BUT, nobody can deny he almost single handedly turned the match around for Italy when coming off bench. Fantastic performance and was lucky not to get a hat-trick. Well done Quagliarella. Deserves credit.
 

ALBICELESTE2010

Champions League
13 July 2006
Watford
Argentina & Watford
Prandelli may look at players like Zarate, Ledesma and Maxi Lopez.

All this means is Argentina will be forced to cap such players for one cap in internationals.

FIFA really needs to clamp down on this. I think it's unfair.

Besides Italy has more than enough young players to fill those positions.
 

lo zio

International
24 October 2005
Palermo
don't worry mate. that's not gonna happen. yeah perhaps some argies might get the naturalization, like amauri did.... but prandelli is never gonna pick em for the national team. that's for sure. ;)
besides as u said, we got better options.... i mean zarate, come on. i'd pick giovinco over him every day (not to mention cassano or balotelli or rossi), even considering giovinco basically didn't play at all this season! and btw losing zarate wouldn't really be tragic for l'albiceleste either. i mean with all the class u guys have upfront, what role could zarate possibly have? the ball boy? or perhaps the water boy? :P
milanista said:
At least Toto is not 36 like Hubner was when he made his break
:P Grande Hubner!!! gold old fella... he looked like a 40 years old guy already when he was a teenager! but a damn good striker it must be said..... i wonder what he's up to now....

... wait a minute, he retired from football didn't he?
rfu said:
Really looking forward to that one. Keep us posted mate. Anything interesting comes up, post with a translation please :))
the "trial" is officially on mate :)) . the corriere dello sport and the gazzetta dello sport (the 2 most important italian football newspapers) have simply DESTROYED lippi over the last 2 days. every single mistake, every questionable tactical call, the starting line ups, the frenzy change of formations, the stubborness he showed whenever someone questioned his decisions has been remarked and mocked in the most subtle and cruel way.
i'm not gonna translate some specific article for now as their content reflects pretty much everything we said in this thread, so it would be just repeating what has already been written (besides it would take a lot of time :P ).
but believe me this is so sweet. that's most likely gonna be the final nail on the coffin. the end of lippi's carreer.

i usually don't like theese things. watching journalists commenting and analisyng every single questionable decision and blaming the coach for his calls.
it's always easy to see what was the right call in retrospect. what's tough is to take the right decision in real time.
a coach who failed is already disappointed enough, there's no need to assault on him like jackals on a wounded prey, just for the sake of rubbing on it.

but this time is different. u see the journalists, the fans... we all aren't just judging lippi's mistakes in retrospect. the comments u hear now are exactly the same comments u could hear before the world cup. those comments lippi labeled as "moronic".

well big guy, how do those comments sound now!! :SNACK:
plf said:
As for Fabio Q, if I were Lippi, he wouldn't have even been in my squad, I would've cut him and kept Rossi. BUT, nobody can deny he almost single handedly turned the match around for Italy when coming off bench
completely agree on both accounts mate. quagliarella is nice player, but he's been in a pretty poor form all season long, so i would have picked other players ahead of him aswell. but i'm happy he did well.
 
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ALBICELESTE2010

Champions League
13 July 2006
Watford
Argentina & Watford
Zarate could host the parties amigo..... :P ;)

Ledesma has been a bit unlucky though. Giovinco is a super player and unlucky with that injurt and losing his spot to Candreva.

I cannot think why Juve would want to sell him. He should be part of their future plans.
 

Leo Bax

International
30 July 2006
Italy
Prandelli may look at players like Zarate, Ledesma and Maxi Lopez.

All this means is Argentina will be forced to cap such players for one cap in internationals.

FIFA really needs to clamp down on this. I think it's unfair.

Besides Italy has more than enough young players to fill those positions.
Don't worry, it won't happen. As Ben said, we are not so desperate to call them. At least Giovinco, Montolivo and Gilardino (or Pazzini) can be better (in Prandelli's plans) than the 3 you named.

But it's more probably that we will "steal" other youngs from your NT, like we did with Forestieri, Osvaldo or Schelotto.
 

ALBICELESTE2010

Champions League
13 July 2006
Watford
Argentina & Watford
Don't worry, it won't happen. As Ben said, we are not so desperate to call them. At least Giovinco, Montolivo and Gilardino (or Pazzini) can be better (in Prandelli's plans) than the 3 you named.

But it's more probably that we will "steal" other youngs from your NT, like we did with Forestieri, Osvaldo or Schelotto.
This is what genuinely does worry the South American federations LeoMessi, that many kids are going to Europe at a very young age and then will end up playing for that nation.

Osvaldo has been hit and miss though he scored a few at the end of this season and Forestieri has not really shown up at all.

I hope you understand the fear that CONMEBOL has. Which is why I think FIFA should have a closer look at player transfers and have a minimum age requirement.

We capped German Pacheco (Atletico Madrid) for the under age side to prevent Spain acquiring him but until he gets a full cap he is so to speak still at risk.
 

Leo Bax

International
30 July 2006
Italy
This is what genuinely does worry the South American federations LeoMessi, that many kids are going to Europe at a very young age and then will end up playing for that nation.

Osvaldo has been hit and miss though he scored a few at the end of this season and Forestieri has not really shown up at all.

I hope you understand the fear that CONMEBOL has. Which is why I think FIFA should have a closer look at player transfers and have a minimum age requirement.

We capped German Pacheco (Atletico Madrid) for the under age side to prevent Spain acquiring him but until he gets a full cap he is so to speak still at risk.
I understand your worry, that's why I don't accept this "nationalities market". The problem is, according to new FIFA rules, a player can play with Under 18, Under 20 team (just to make an example) with Argentina, but then play with Senior Team with Italy. It happened with a lot with african players (Prince Boateng played with Germany Under 21, and now he's playing for Ghana) and this can happen, for example, with German Pacheco: until he will play his first match with Argentina Senior, he can be called by Spain. I understand your worries.
 

rfU

League 1
8 February 2009
Atlanta
Inter
yeah, he's a good player and he's having a good tournament. he also had a good season with bayern.... but that still doesn't justify a comparison with de rossi.i mean let's put thing in perspective shall we. u say the good thing about van bommel is that he also provides "guile in attack".... let's take a look at their numbers
van bommel scored 13 goals in the last 5 years. danielle scored 33 goals in the same period. just this season, daniele scored almost the same ammount of goals (11) van bommel scored ever since he left psv (wich was 5 years ago)....
honestly, i think i'm entitled to a "wtf are u talking about?" :D
I'll tell you wtf i'm talking about, goals are great, and I applaud De Rossi's goal scoring ability, BUT who's transitioning the ball from defence to attack? You can't argue that isn't his job because as the most complete midfielder on the planet, he shouldn't be so one dimensional. I would rather De Rossi carve out chances with incisive passing than just hoofing it at goal whenever he gets the chance. I blame the likes of Lippi who tried to utilize De Rossi in a CB role partnering Chellini.

By the way, I remember I asked a question about Sacchi, I can't remember what about. I guess never mind. If you have know of any tactics/coaching books in english I can cop give us a shout or at least point us in the right direction. Cheers.
 

lo zio

International
24 October 2005
Palermo
well then, like u said before, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one mate.
btw buddy, i hope u didn't take my "wtf are u talking about" too seriously. it wasn't meant to be an insulting "wtf are u talking about" (as the smiley proves)... i was just joking :BEER:
u're a nice guy with a great understanding of the game and i always respect your opinion, even when i disagree with u :))

rfu said:
By the way, I remember I asked a question about Sacchi, I can't remember what about. I guess never mind. If you have know of any tactics/coaching books in english I can cop give us a shout or at least point us in the right direction. Cheers.
oh man, i completely forgot about that pm u sent me mate, i'm so sorry. unfortunately i'm gonna be crazy busy until the last week of july (i'll hardly have time to post in the forum anything longer than a "one liner"), but i promise as soon as i'll be a "free man" again, i'll reply to both your questions (about english written football books and sacchi).

see ya soon guys.... and to those of u who are enjoying their summer holidays and watching every single world cup game.... i hope your tv will explode right before the beginning of the WC final, u lucky bas**ds :P
 
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Neoexodus

SLB Juve Barça Arsenal
8 November 2007
Portugal
One question, Lippi had some issues with some players right? Who were they? Cassano was one of them but who were the others during his time as NT manager?
 

PLF

Legend
2 August 2004
Ambrosini? Really? Didn't know about that one though I did wonder how someone like him could be overlooked from Milan and yet Gattuso not! :LOL:
 

rfU

League 1
8 February 2009
Atlanta
Inter
btw buddy, i hope u didn't take my "wtf are u talking about" too seriously. it wasn't meant to be an insulting "wtf are u talking about" (as the smiley proves)... i was just joking :BEER:
Yo take it back. i didn;t take any of what you said personally. Was only responding in kind. That's the problem with internet forums, people interpret things differently. The slightest hint of sarcasm can easily be considered offensive. Anyway, on Sacchi, take your time, but I'm really curious about him, plus i need something to read at work :)) Cheers.

Oh and what's the point of this forum now anyhow, Italy's out (hehehe...) so what's left to discuss? Oh yeah, Lippi's demise :P Serves him right for getting the Coppa/UCL/Serie A champions eliminated from the UCL by fucking Helsingborg (who?) back in '00 ...

Moggster has some nerve, the other day he was blaming Italy's abysmal showing on Inter. Apparently, because the 18 time Italian champions, European champions, etc (:P) have zero Italians in their starting 11 (Erm, Thiago Motta) the Nazionale effectively had no chance. Maybe he should worry more about staying out of jail and less about the Treble winners. Is anyone even following Calciopoli II :LOL: Goal.com :LOL: Yaaargh :PIRATE:
 

Milanista

Mangiamoli!
Staff
19 December 2002
London & Milan
AC Milan
Thiago Motta doesn't count! The only real Italians Inter have are Balotelli, Santon and Materazzi ... and I'll throw old man Toldo there too.
 

Leo Bax

International
30 July 2006
Italy
Ambrosini? Really? Didn't know about that one though I did wonder how someone like him could be overlooked from Milan and yet Gattuso not! :LOL:
I neither know why, but rumors say they are not friend. That's why, as you said, he prefer the reserve Gattuso instead of Milan captain...
 

rfU

League 1
8 February 2009
Atlanta
Inter
Thiago Motta doesn't count!
Why not? What's wrong with him? He's more Italian than Camoranesi. I reckon h would have made a good alternative to Montolivo in midfield. He doesn't pussy foot as much but when he's shit he's really shit.
 

PLF

Legend
2 August 2004
Thigo Motta is not Italian. Simple as that.

Guys like him and Amauri should not play for Italy preferably and probably won't.
 
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