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World Cup 2010 - The Italy Thread - Prandelli!!!

lo zio

International
24 October 2005
Palermo
Thigo Motta is not Italian. Simple as that.

Guys like him and Amauri should not play for Italy preferably and probably won't.
exactly ;)
u're right rfu, thiago motta is as italian as camoranesi... infact they're both not italians. camoranesi just retired from italy... and i don't want another foreigner taking his place. as i already said that's not fair. and it makes the whole concept of national teams football completely pointless.
milanista said:
Lega Calcio has reduced non-eu signings from 2 to 1 per season! They want to encourage academies and Italian players.
my 2 cents from the serie a thread: http://forums.evo-web.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1987786&postcount=4872
this is a disgraceful move. it's nothing but a demagogic move of a man (giancarlo abete, federcalcio president) who has absolutely no idea of what he's doing!

1 - first of, there's not an "italian players issue" to solve. about 70% of the players in serie a are italians. that's the highest percentage of domestic players in the top european leagues... there are more italians in serie a than germans in bundesliga or spanish in la liga, for fuck sakes! and our acadamies are packed with italian players already.... so what the fuck is this move about!?!? palermo's academy counts 35 players and just 4 of em are not italians.... 4 out of 35 for crying out loud!

2 - this is not gonna make our clubs "more italians". this is just gonna raise the number of naturalizations requests! all the non EU players will find an EU ancestor and get an italian passport (or another EU passport)..... for instance inter is the only non italian team in serie a....well i can tell u every inter foreign player could get an italian passport and become "italian"..... all of them, zanetti, burdisso, milito, samuel, all of em. so the only result of this dumb move is that we'll have dozens of non EU players converting themselves into italians or spanish or germans and getting an eu passport so they can get around this rule.

3 - this move will have a terrible impact on our market. as a result of this rule, the italian players' pricetag will raise and the "not eu players" pricetag will reach the sky! those of u guys who know about economics will understand what i'm talking about.
but then again u don't really need to be an expert in economics to get this, as it's pretty straight-forward. as soon as u limit the supply, the demand's value raises.
and that's gonna be a huge problem for our midclass clubs. it took a lot of time for italy to have a "healthy" players market. players pricetags are reasonable in italy today. u can buy (italian or foreigners) for a good price, improve them as players, give them visibility and then sell them for 2, 3, 4 times what u paid for them. that's what keeps many serie a midclass clubs in business. palermo, samp, udinese, catania, the majority of italian clubs built their franchises precisely thanks to this pennywise-smart management policy. never buy famous hyped players, look for unknown players with good potential and try to turn them into better players.
this is gonna change if this new rule will be approved. our market will change, and as a result of that, serie a will change. i can say that's gonna make serie a a weaker league, that's not gonna improve the quality of serie a football (at all), that's not gonna increase the number of italian players in serie a clubs (it's just gonna increase the number of FAKE italian players, namely foreigners with an italian passport).

the entire serie a establishment is against this rule. i really hope they'll do everything and i mean everything, to stop abete (i say let's skip the first 3 weeks of the season, let's refuse to play and mess up the entire serie a schedule and let's see how that idiot likes that!).

i have no time to read football newspapers theese days, but i truly hope the major italian sport newspapers are remarking theese points too. we need the whole country to back up serie a's presidents in their war against federcalcio's president abete.
 

rfU

League 1
8 February 2009
Atlanta
Inter
exactly ;)
u're right rfu, thiago motta is as italian as camoranesi... infact they're both not italians. camoranesi just retired from italy... and i don't want another foreigner taking his place.
:LOL: but it's ok for Balotelli and Liverani to represent Italy at international level? Get outtaaaa here!! Seriously, who cares. Where were you guys when Camoranesi was Italy's most creative force in the 2006 WC? So what does someone have to do be considered Italian, anyway? Know the words to the national anthem? That rules out half the team right there. If your elgible for citizenship there shouldn't be an issue. I bet if Amauri was capocannoniere this season ALL of you would want him in the starting line up ahead of Italians such as Toni, Pazzini, and Gilardino. I bet if Milito or Zanetti had an Italian grandfather or grandmother, again, ALL of you would want them in the team. Such bullshit. You guys remind me of the french nationalist Le Pen who was moaning about how 'artificial' the French NT is because there too many black and Arabs and too few pure-blooded white Gauls. dude was living in the wrong century. So are a few of you actually. end of the day, we're living in a multi-racial society/world. You have immigrants swarming in from fuck knows where, looking for work or a better life etc... 10 years from now, there probably won't be many "true" Italians of latin-celtic-germanic (or wherever it is Italians have descended from) descent left to represent the Azzurri. So you better get used to it.

as i already said that's not fair. and it makes the whole concept of national teams football completely pointless.
How is it not fair? So long as the player in question is eligible for Italian citizenship there should be zero issue with this.

Motta? That guy is dumb as hell...Italy has better options atm.
:LOL: like who? And he's better than any Juve midfielder so I'm not sure what you're on about. Just hater but that's cool :))
 

Milanista

Mangiamoli!
Staff
19 December 2002
London & Milan
AC Milan
There is a difference between Balotelli, Liverani, Motta and Camoranesi. The first 2 lived almost their whole lives in Italy, as well as attending Italian schools. The latter 2 only came to Italy for footballing reasons and seek an Italian nationality to play football (to fill UEFA and Serie A quotas). Germany is an example of using players who have foreign descent but are German because they've spent their lives there, therefore are German - ignore what stupid commentators say about them being a 'team without Germans', because apart from Cacau, they are all German players.

I also disagree about Milito, Zanetti or Amauri. The guys can't even speak Italian properly, and have only been in Italy to play football, so why do they deserve to play in the NT over someone like Balotelli and Gilardino? I don't see this changing anytime soon, and I think in 10 years time we will still have a NT fully consisting of Italian Italians like Balotelli rather than the Amauris.

You don't see Almunia getting picked up for England.
 

Lami

Niche Football
28 May 2007
Sydney
Man Utd, Juve
There is a difference between Balotelli, Liverani, Motta and Camoranesi. The first 2 lived almost their whole lives in Italy, as well as attending Italian schools. The latter 2 only came to Italy for footballing reasons and seek an Italian nationality to play football (to fill UEFA and Serie A quotas). Germany is an example of using players who have foreign descent but are German because they've spent their lives there, therefore are German - ignore what stupid commentators say about them being a 'team without Germans', because apart from Cacau, they are all German players.

I also disagree about Milito, Zanetti or Amauri. The guys can't even speak Italian properly, and have only been in Italy to play football, so why do they deserve to play in the NT over someone like Balotelli and Gilardino? I don't see this changing anytime soon, and I think in 10 years time we will still have a NT fully consisting of Italian Italians like Balotelli rather than the Amauris.

You don't see Almunia getting picked up for England.
:SHOCK:

Considering he's been playing for Inter for 15 years now thought he'd know more Italian than Italians themselves..
 

Milanista

Mangiamoli!
Staff
19 December 2002
London & Milan
AC Milan
I mean yes, he speaks italian fluently, but you can tell the way he speaks that its not his first language or that there is an accent.
 

lo zio

International
24 October 2005
Palermo
but it's ok for Balotelli and Liverani to represent Italy at international level? Get outtaaaa here!! Seriously, who cares. Where were you guys when Camoranesi was Italy's most creative force in the 2006 WC? So what does someone have to do be considered Italian, anyway?
of course it's ok for balotelli and liverani mate. balotelli was born in palermo and spent his entire life in italy.... he was born from ghanese parents, but they abadoned him when he was a child. he's never been in ghana, he can't even speak a word of ghanese.
and the same goes for liverani... born in roma raised in roma, always lived in italy...
thiago motta, and camoranesi got the italian passport only coz they have italian roots, but that doesn't make them italians.. they were born in different countries, raised in different countries, by foreigners parents.
amauri got the citizenship only coz he married an italian.... does that makes him an italian footballer? com on!
trust me, this has nothing to do with nationalism or chauvinism... and it definitely has nothing to do with le pen's bullshits... the point of national team football is to display players from your own country.... how can u call "italian" a brazilian just coz he married an italian!?!
rfu said:
I bet if Amauri was capocannoniere this season ALL of you would want him in the starting line up ahead of Italians such as Toni, Pazzini, and Gilardino. I bet if Milito or Zanetti had an Italian grandfather or grandmother, again, ALL of you would want them in the team
actually milito HAS an italian grandfather..... and so does zanetti.... this is not the point. even messi could have played for italy (as he has italian roots too), that doesn't change the fact that he's an argie, just like milito and zanetti.
again mate, this has nothing to do with nationalism... hell i'm a socialist who spent one third of his life abroad... u'll hardly find someone less chauvinist than me!
but an italian team displaying the likes of zanetti, thiago motta, milito, messi, cambiasso, mascherano (they all have italian roots) just wouldn't make any sense at all.

i have an enourmous respect for camoranesi, he's a fantastic player.... but im afraid he's not italian. he's an argentinian player and it's not fair to have him playing with an italian shirt.
rfu said:
You have immigrants swarming in from fuck knows where, looking for work or a better life etc... 10 years from now, there probably won't be many "true" Italians of latin-celtic-germanic (or wherever it is Italians have descended from) descent left to represent the Azzurri. So you better get used to it.
it's not like we're not used to it mate.... italy has been a melting pot since 2750 years ago.... i know for instance i have greek roots... but my greek roots go back to my ancestors (1500 years ago).... so despite having greek roots i'm 100% italian..... if a greek guy comes here and marries an italian girl (like amauri did), well he will get the italian citizenship.... but that won't turn him into an italian.... he will still remain greek to me.

i'm not a nationalist prick, i just don't think it's fair to have non italian players playing for italy. that's it.

rfu said:
lo zio said:
Motta? That guy is dumb as hell...Italy has better options atm.
like who? And he's better than any Juve midfielder so I'm not sure what you're on about. Just hater but that's cool
? :SS neoexodus wrote that post mate, not me :P
but anyway, i partially agree with him. thiago motta is a great player (when fit), but we do have 2 better options in de rossi and palombo
 
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Lami

Niche Football
28 May 2007
Sydney
Man Utd, Juve
thiago motta, and camoranesi got the italian passport only coz they have italian roots, but that doesn't make them italians.. they were born in different countries, raised in different countries, by foreigners parents.
amauri got the citizenship only coz he married an italian.... does that makes him an italian footballer? com on!
According to this, here's a little riddle for you:

I was born in a country, that won't give me citizenship, then moved to another country with parents as a baby which I lived in for almost all my life, that won't give me citizenship, and my grandparents forcefully migrated from a country, that I can't get its citizenship. Married to someone from a country that gave me its citizenship.

What am I? ;)
 

lo zio

International
24 October 2005
Palermo
:D well u're clearely a border-line case lami... pretty much like giuseppe rossi.
but the players we mentioned before are in a different situation.
camoranesi was born in argentina, raised in argentina, by argentinian parents. his only connection with italy is an ancestor he never even met. and the same goes for thiago motta (born in brazil and raised in brazil by brazilian parents). and amauri doesn't even have that "ancestors connection": he just married an italian girl (actually that's not even correct, amauri married a brazilian girl who got the italian citizenship because of hers italian ancestors).
camoranesi and amauri decided to get the italian citizenship just to have a chance to play for italy. i just don't think that's fair. :))
 

Zeem

Wonder Boy
15 July 2006
AC Milan
What ever happened to the "pride of representing your country"? Seeing Spain was awesome tonight. I mean choosing another NT instead of your own to have a shot at playing at the WC is really not acceptable to me. Al lot might even feel offended by that.

Ibrahimovic would make the switch in a second if he had the chance. :D
 

PLF

Legend
2 August 2004
Spain had Marcos Senna (fantastic player whom they still miss and could do better job than Busquets) whom I was also against because his case was just like Motta representing Italy. A Brazilian.

But yeah their team right now is all Spanish and a great one.

rFu, don't give me that crap about us not belonging to this century. That's offensive man. Luckily Ben and Milanista have given you perfect answers so I don't need to repeat what they said. I live in Toronto, Canada which is as multicultural as a city can GET and one reason I love it IS this diversity and all of us coming together. True Globalization and yes everybody is mixing and mingling and that's great. :)

But like Mila said, Germany is perfect team full of 'NOT 100% ethnically German' players that I have absolutely NO problem with. Either they're half German or at the VERY least they were again either born or raised from a young age in the country. Speaking their language, going through their schooling/educational systems. They're Germans. Cacau being the rare exception.

If you can't see the difference between Thiago Motta or Amauri playing for Italy vs. someone like Fabio Liverani who IS ITalian! Then nothing more needs to be said really....

@Ben, I believe, Amauri DOES have Italian ancestry like many Brazilians though. He always had that. Even before marriage. His citizenship might come because of that marriage and to be able to represent Italy which I'm against but I recall he has some Italian ancestry anyhow, of course I don't know this for a fact, I never looked up his family tree. :P But I wouldn't be surprised if he did. Not that it matters...
 

rfU

League 1
8 February 2009
Atlanta
Inter
There is a difference between Balotelli, Liverani, Motta and Camoranesi. The first 2 lived almost their whole lives in Italy, as well as attending Italian schools. The latter 2 only came to Italy for footballing reasons and seek an Italian nationality to play football (to fill UEFA and Serie A quotas).
What about G. Rossi. He was born in america, never lived in italy, never went to school in Italy, in fact many consider him American rather than Italian. Where do you draw the line? How many years do you have to live in Italy or got attend Italian schools? How fluent do you have to be Italian? But I see your point. It's not right to seek citizenship simply to allow more room for non-EU players at your club or just so you can play in a world cup. But I think if your intentions are truly earnest and you want to be Italian, then it shouldn't be an issue, so long as eligible and you go about it lawfully without falsifying your family history.

What ever happened to the "pride of representing your country"? Seeing Spain was awesome tonight. I mean choosing another NT instead of your own to have a shot at playing at the WC is really not acceptable to me.
Put yourself in their shoes. If you're Thiago Motta for example and you've spent most of your life in Europe, and as he claims, you feel more Italian than Brazilian, it's your only chance to participate in the greatest sporting event in history... why would you deprive yourself the opportunity? Again, this is the WC, the grandest stage of all... a once in a life time opportunity for many. I don't agree with it for the most part, but I can understand the decision.

You don't see Almunia getting picked up for England.
Yeah that's because he's rubbish :LOL: If he was god-like like Casillas or Julio Cesar then...

but anyway, i partially agree with him. thiago motta is a great player (when fit), but we do have 2 better options in de rossi and palombo
better in what role though? If you want a midfielder who play short incisive passes into the final 1/3, then Motta is your man. IMO Motta is a good alternative to have on the bench, you can't deny his record or performances in the big games (and I'm not talking about goals). I mean, he plays for the greatest team on the planet right now, how bad can he be :P
 

lo zio

International
24 October 2005
Palermo
rfu said:
What about G. Rossi. He was born in america, never lived in italy, never went to school in Italy
that's not right mate. giuseppe lived in italy and also went to school in italy for 5 years. he also learned his football basics in parma's academy, where he stayed for 4 years (before leaving for manchester). anyway giuseppe was raised by italian parents... he said he learned italian even before he could speak in english... we're not talking about an ancient italian ancestor he never even met here. we're talking about the people who raised him. he's definitely 100% italian.... and he's also definitely 100% american. giuseppe is a border-line case, but i have no problem with this kinda cases. what i don't like is people changing their nationality precisely to join another national team. giuseppe never changed his nationality. he has been italian since his birth (according to the italian law).
rfu said:
Put yourself in their shoes. If you're Thiago Motta for example and you've spent most of your life in Europe, and as he claims, you feel more Italian than Brazilian, it's your only chance to participate in the greatest sporting event in history... why would you deprive yourself the opportunity
yeah i can understand that... but then again what's the point in partecipating to a national competition, with playing for a nation wich is not your own nation?
i'm a damn good swimmer. unfortutately i've never been good enough to get in the italian olympic team, coz i'm not good enough.... but i could have easily become a key asset in the swiss olympic swimming team..... but i would have never asked for a swiss passport (if i had the chance) just to make it to the olimpic games... coz i would feel like an idiot with a swiss swimsuit! not that i have something against switzerland.... but i'm not swiss!!! thiago motta spent in italy just a couple of years. he wasn't born here he wasn't raised by italian parents... and up till 2 years ago he couldn't even speak a word of italian!! :P
PLF said:
@Ben, I believe, Amauri DOES have Italian ancestry like many Brazilians though. He always had that. Even before marriage..... I recall he has some Italian ancestry
really? i didn't know that. but yeah, like u said it doesn't even matter. i'm a big fan of amauri and i really hope he will get back to his palermo days-standards sooner or later... but even if that would happen, even if he would turn out to be greater than pelè himself, i still wouldn't want him to wear any national team jersey, other than his national team jersey (wich is and will always be the brazilian one). :))
rfu said:
......10 years from now, there probably won't be many "true" Italians of latin-celtic-germanic (or wherever it is Italians have descended from) descent left to represent the Azzurri
mate, we civilized the entire planet! (well except india, japan, china and a few other asian countries) we gave the world the alphabet, and then we taught the rest of the world how to write and read.. we taught the rest of the world how to build their cities, how to form their governments... we gave the world the very concept of repubblic... all the main principles of every democratic country in the world come from us (ever wondered why all the main law principles are in latin?).
we showed the rest of the planet how to use their own creativity by painting, sculpting, building or writing.... and as a matter of fact all the cultures all over the world still try to imitate us in each of those aspects.... just think at how many samples of roman architecture u can find nowadays in countries the romans didn't even conquered. have u ever seen the united states capitol in DC? the meeting place of the US congress? that's 100% roman architecture.... but it's not like it was built by the romans.... the roman empire was already history when the capitol was built.... still that's a roman building.... that's how deep our influence on the world is.... oh, and btw the word "capitol" is latin aswell. infact the capitolino colle is the hill where the romans had their own "congress"... and obviously "congress" too is a latin world (it comes from congresso), but then again, that's no surprise as the whole concept of parliamanent comes from roma (infact its real name is "parlamento"). i know it might sound crazy (especially for a guy who couldn't even tell the difference between a roman and a celtic till 3 minutes ago :P ) but the most important elements of your own culture, were pretty much "borrowed" from the roman\italian culture.
what the rest of the world (england, germany, france, spain, usa and so on) did is pretty similar to what tv broadcasters do nowadays. the american television invents a very succesful program called "big brother"... and other broadcasters from other countries say "hey that's a great show, let's just copy it, import it in our country. it'll be a success!"
the sad thing is that, while everyone knows big brother comes from usa, just a few people know, democracy, liberties, arts, architecture and the language itself come from that little country known as italy, wich is today famous only for his well known greasy gangsters, and curly plumbers with red hats and moustaches, who like to jump over little turtles.

as i said earlier mate, they civilized the world. the very least u can do is remember what was their name: they were called "romans" or "latins". :D

and it's not like they were "true italians". the word "true italians" itself makes no sense at all. italy is even more of a melting pot than usa (wich is usually regarded as the most interracial country in the world). the italians have ancestors from spain, greece, germany, africa, england, france... we have been having immigrants for the last 2500 years mate. italy used to attract millions of immigrants from the rest of the world already when usa was populated only by grizzlies and condors. people from all over the world used to come here to improve their knowledge in politics, or architecture or philosophy or science or arts.....and as a result of that romans were pretty much what americans are today: a melting pot. sure there was a key core of "pure romans", but that was just the core. Seneca is regarded as one of the greatests philosopher in history... yeah he was a roman, he spent most of his life in roma, but he was also spanish. Tacito is considered the greatest historian ever. he was roman yeah, but he was also french. Archimede (or achimedes as u call him) was along with einstein, franklin, galilei and leonardo da vinci the most brilliant mind ever existed... he was roman, but he was also greek.

my hometown itself shows the real multicultural nature of italy. palermo is a roman town.... founded by the greeks (the name "palermo" comes from 2 ancient greek words: "pan ormao" wich means "all-harbour"). and it's not just that. palermo has been an arab city for about 200 years (our very own cathedral was once a mosque... and even today, if u look at it from the back, u see a mosque and not a cristian cathedral).

even today if have a walk in downtown palermo, u can find road signs in 3 languages (italian, arab and hebrew)

muslims, jews and cristian have been living (and praying) in peace here for 1800 years, along with africans who used to worship the sun and greeks who used to build temples dedicated to zeus. i can't imagine anything more multicultural than that honestly.

i know there is a lot of misinformation about italy. people don't study romans history at school very well (wich is a shame as almost every modern civilization comes from ours)... then they see a few fascists thugs in a stadium and get a (very) wrong impression.
the truth is italy is much more multi-ethnic than people tend to think. :))

sorry for this long digression, but given that statement of yours (the one i quoted) i thought a bit of info on "wherever it is Italians have descended from" was needed :P
 

rfU

League 1
8 February 2009
Atlanta
Inter
rFu, don't give me that crap about us not belonging to this century. That's offensive man. Luckily Ben and Milanista have given you perfect answers so I don't need to repeat what they said. I live in Toronto, Canada which is as multicultural as a city can GET and one reason I love it IS this diversity and all of us coming together. True Globalization and yes everybody is mixing and mingling and that's great. :)
Bruh, it's rfU :COOL: didn't mean to imply that any of you were flagrant racists or anything of the sort by the way. By real Italians I assumed you meant persons belonging to of caucasian-apline-mediterranid ethnic group. But looks like your criteria includes anyone either born and raised in italy. That's fine. But in my opinion, so long as the eligible for citizenship, whether they were born in Canada or Malaysia, they should be eligible to represent the Azzurri. I mean who are we to deny Amauri or Motta the right to be Italians so long as mean it in earnest? If they feel Italian and go about it legally. It is cheating in a way though, I agree, but it doesn't bother me in the slightest. Amauri has lived in Italy ten years, to earn citizenship through marriage you need to have resided in Italy for at least 5, to obtain citizenship normally it's 10 years of uninterrupted residence... maybe the laws need to be changed, perhaps the years lengthened. I get T. Motta, he hasn't lived in Italy long, but Amauri is acceptable. He may not be Italian by birth, but he's more Italian than my niece (born in Rome in 2008) I think. He meets the criteria as far as I'm concerned.

that's not right mate. giuseppe lived in italy and also went to school in italy for 5 years. he also learned his football basics in parma's academy, where he stayed for 4 years (before leaving for manchester). anyway giuseppe was raised by italian parents... he said he learned italian even before he could speak in english... we're not talking about an ancient italian ancestor he never even met here. we're talking about the people who raised him. he's definitely 100% italian.... and he's also definitely 100% american. giuseppe is a border-line case, but i have no problem with this kinda cases. what i don't like is people changing their nationality precisely to join another national team. giuseppe never changed his nationality. he has been italian since his birth (according to the italian law).
Oh, my mistake. Will check my facts next time.

thiago motta spent in italy just a couple of years. he wasn't born here he wasn't raised by italian parents... and up till 2 years ago he couldn't even speak a word of italian!! :P
so what's the acceptable criteria? I meann Zanetti has lived and played in Italy for as many years as Balotelli is old (well almost)... he may not sound Italian, he may not have italian parents, but would it be acceptable for him to represent Italy on the international stage (even at 37 :P)

mate, we civilized the entire planet! (well except india, japan, china and a few other asian countries)
Hang on... And Ancient Egypt and the Americas. Also much of sub-saharan Africa. You know Asia is a pretty big place, much larger than Roman Empire ever was. I think you mean Western world mate, not planet. And wasn't it the ancient greeks that influenced the romans to begin with :P Anyway the point I was making was that Italy is so diverse and so multicultural (and like you pointed out, many Argies have Italian grandparents) so it shouldn't be much of an issue if Motta or Amauri attain italian citizenship. But whatever flicks your switch I suppose.

By the way I'm not american, I just live here :)
 

Lami

Niche Football
28 May 2007
Sydney
Man Utd, Juve

lo zio

International
24 October 2005
Palermo
well the phoenician alphabet strongly effected the greek alphabet, but not the roman. the roman alphabet (a,b,c...) is an original invention of the romans. there are some vowels and consonants that u can find only in the phoenician and greek alhpabet and viceversa. for instance the roman alphabet has no "η" no "ϑ", no "Ω".
that's just talking about the alphabet, of course. if we talk about "languages" then yes, the roman language (wich is the matrix of the 80% of the languages spoken in the world today) was hugely effected by the greek one.... and the greek one was effected by the phoenician. but alphabet and languages are 2 separate things. :))
besides, it wasn't the phoenicians who taught the germans, the french, the spanish and the english how to read and write.... the romans took care of that :P
rfu said:
Hang on... And Ancient Egypt and the Americas. Also much of sub-saharan Africa. You know Asia is a pretty big place, much larger than Roman Empire ever was. I think you mean Western world mate, not planet.
no mate, i litterally mean the planet. the impact of the roman culture over the entire mankind is so deep that even "new cultures" who grew up centuries after the decadence of the roman empire were litterally built over roman grounds. the americas offer a pretty good example. america was discovered a few centuries after the end of the empire, yet each american (north american and south american) culture today is built on roman grounds. your governments, your laws, your irrigation systems, your architecture, your economic system, your educational system, the judicial system..... they all come from here. of course there are many aspects of modern culture the romans had nothing to do with.... we have nothing to do with pop culture, or with the beat culture, just to mention the first things that come into my mind, but the "important stuff", the pillars we all built our civilization on, the grounds of most of world's culture.... that comes from here.
and as for ancient egypt.... well ancient egypt was actually part of the roman empire. if u refer to the pre-roman culture, the pharaohs dinasties, well, just to give u an idea of the difference between the impact of theese 2 cultures, modern egypt government is based on a roman model, and not on the ancient egyptian model.

anyway i wasn't trying to establish some sort of italian supremacy or bullshits like that.... and i'm not one of those stupid european snobs who like to mock american culture.... it's just that since u seemed to refer to the italian ancestors as an nondescript culture (latin-celtic-germanic or wherever it is Italians have descended from), i thought it was appropriate to remark where we stand in mankind history. ;)
rfu said:
And wasn't it the ancient greeks that influenced the romans to begin with Anyway the point I was making was that Italy is so diverse and so multicultural (and like you pointed out, many Argies have Italian grandparents) so it shouldn't be much of an issue if Motta or Amauri attain italian citizenship
indeed the greeks had an enourmous impact on the roman civilization and the roman civilization itself was a huge melting pot, as i said earlier.
and yes, i have absolutely no problem with motta or amauri or anyone else claiming the italian citizenship. the thing is we're talking about being part of the national football team.
those are 2 different things imo. i honestly find it funny to talk about nationalities and countries. infact i'm against any sort of patriotic or nationalistic instinct. the world is (and that is true today as it was 2000 years ago) a huge melting pot. and most of the world cultures (europeans and americans) were built over the integration of immigrants, who are a key asset in our social structure. the migration flows litterally tear apart any boundaries.

but the national team football idea is based on boundaries. it's kinda stupid and shortsighted under a certain point of view, but that's how it works. so each national team should be represented by players who have a very strong connection with the country itself. that might be being born in italy or raised in italy.... or being raised outside italy but by italian parents..... or maybe moving in italy at such a young age u can be considered as an italian football school product.
so is mario balotelli italian? yeah. giuseppe rossi? sure. robert acquafresca? absolutely. but amauri, zanetti, camoranesi, thiago motta, they belong to different countries. their only connection to italy is ancestral.... they never even met their italian ancestors.
and yeah while zanetti (as a man) can be considered as italian as argentinian because he spent most of his life here, he still remains a "product" of the argentinan school... he still belongs to that culture. so it would be unfair towards argentina if italy would "take advantage" of an argentinian player.
i know this is kind of an outdated concept, but that's the concept national team football is based on.
so if u ask me "isn't zanetti as italian as argentinian?" my answer would be "yes, sure. as a man, he is italian as much as he is argentinian, since he spent most of his life here"......... but as a football player, he remains 100% argentinian. or at least that's how i see him. :))
 

Milanista

Mangiamoli!
Staff
19 December 2002
London & Milan
AC Milan
I think Ben summed it up great here:

so if u ask me "isn't zanetti as italian as argentinian?" my answer would be "yes, sure. as a man, he is italian as much as he is argentinian, since he spent most of his life here"......... but as a football player, he remains 100% argentinian. or at least that's how i see him.
 

DeFrenZ

Conference
27 November 2005
Italy
Juventus F.C.
If you always cheered for an NT whatever happened, that's a good way to start being eligible for playing yourself in that team :)

This is not a "is he italian" but more a "does he truly feel italian" matter here.
 

rfU

League 1
8 February 2009
Atlanta
Inter
looking at how Germany's style of play has evolved over the years, maybe some Argies and Brazilians might not be such a bad thing for the Azzuri. You guys do need some flair and speed in the midfield, and BADLY. And it's not like there's much coming through in the youth department. Relatively speaking I mean. Of course, you're much better off than the English who up till now don't have a goal keeper
 

lo zio

International
24 October 2005
Palermo
looking at how Germany's style of play has evolved over the years, maybe some Argies and Brazilians might not be such a bad thing for the Azzuri
i'm not saying it would be a bad thing, mate. u see, my point is not about "what we could use", but "what is fair".
i don't even ask myself if we could use thiago motta or amauri or ledesma..... coz my preliminary question is "would it be fair to get some foreign players and take advantage of their italian roots to have them wearing the azzurra shirt?" and IMO this would not be fair.

during the fascism era, mussolini pushed the italian federation to naturalise some world class argies to improve our team. italy showed up to the world cup with an italian-argentinian upfront trio "sivori-maschio-angelillo"... they all had italian roots but none of em was italian.... and the argies still blame us for stealing their 3 champions (and rightly so, imo).

besides, to be honest, i really don't think we lack of creativity and flair (the speed issue is absolutely irrilevant as that's not a problem at all). as a matter of fact we have more talent in pretty much every role than most of the national teams in the world..... yeah, spain has more talent, argentina too..... but who else? germany has a fantastic team filled with quality..... but would u really trade shweinsteiger and kedira for de rossi and pirlo?.... and what about montolivo? what about palombo and cigarini and poli and all the others who will be part of the italian team in the next years.

creativity is not our issue. personality is. we have more dribblers and quality passers than most of the teams in the world..... the point is, as soon as they wear the italian jersey they get scared, worried.
di natale is a force of nature, but whenever he plays for italy, he keeps it way too simple.... he never goes for 1 on 1 situations, he never takes risks, and so does montolivo.

the main reason of the german's great world cup is the same reason of our flop: PERSONALITY, AWARENESS, GUTS. yeah germany has lots of quality, but then again so do italy and france and (to a lesser extent) portugal. yeah germany showed some great teamwork, but sure if there's something italy doesn't lack of is teamwork.... and teamwork wasn't germany's most important quality.
what allowed germany to give its best is the personality of the players. they were aware of their strenght, and didn't show any fear or worries. they weren't afraid to take risks when they had to.
and it's no coincidence if their first failure (agaisnt spain) happened to be also the only time germany looked worried on the pitch.

that's italy's problem. i had a private conversation with abou before the beginning of the world cup. we were talking exactly about this supposed creativity issue in the italian team.
i replied to him that we don't need more "flair". we already have creativity.... what we need is the guts to take advantage of our creativity. we need to shake off our worries and fear and start playing like we could.
just think at the match against slovakia. when quagliarella came in, he completely changed the match..... do u think quaglia is more talented than, say, di natale? or montolivo? of course not. quaglia is a very good player, but definitely not among our best players. but he showed no fear, no worries at all. he entered the pitch and played like he knows he can. he did more dribblings in 30 minutes than the rest of the team in the entire campaign. is quagliarella a better dribbler than di natale? hell no! but unlike di natale, he wasn't afraid to take some risks.

that's why people are so angry at lippi. coz our gutsy players were on holidays while italy was in south africa (balzaretti, balotelli, cassano).... and some others were in south africa but spent pretty much the entire campaign on the bench (like maggio and quagliarella).

pazzini is 26, cassano is 27, balotelli is 20, criscito is 24, montolivo is 25, cigarini is 24, giovinco is 23, acquafresca is 23, de silvestri is 22, marco motta is 24, de rossi is 27, poli is 21........
we don't need to look for quality in other countries.... we already got plenty of quality
 

Milanista

Mangiamoli!
Staff
19 December 2002
London & Milan
AC Milan
I agree with Ben about the creativity. We've got creativity but we lack balls. I think we need personality in defence - Chiellini seems to be scared and nervous.
 

Aboutreika18

Too Black, Too Strong
5 September 2006
A fresh start with Prandelli, who'll inevitably intoduce new, younger, hungrier players into the side, should release the shackles on this side.

Quagliarella's impact in that game against Slovakia was a "what could have been" moment IMO. Lippi's desire to stick with the previous guard, as well leave out "wildcards" like Balotelli and Cassano, accentuated this problem.
 

rfU

League 1
8 February 2009
Atlanta
Inter
i really don't think we lack of creativity and flair (the speed issue is absolutely irrilevant as that's not a problem at all). as a matter of fact we have more talent in pretty much every role than most of the national teams in the world..... yeah, spain has more talent, argentina too..... but who else? germany has a fantastic team filled with quality..... but would u really trade shweinsteiger and kedira for de rossi and pirlo?....
Err, do you really want me to answer that one :D ? By the way, Khedira really impressed me last night vs Uruguay, just full of running, instigating a lot of attacking moves with his off the ball runs, this is what happened vs Argentina, their midfield was just overwhelmed by Ozil and Khedira's hard running.

creativity is not our issue. personality is.
Haven't I been saying this about De Rossi? Sure he's a warrior, full of fight, committed, but he doesn't want to bear the responsibility. I think De Rossi needs to move to a big club because right now he's growing rather comfortable in that "under-dog" role with Roma. He needs to shed that nearly-tag moniker and stick his neck out more, call for the ball, direct the flow of the game, drive the team, just look at Schweinsteiger this season with Bayern, how he has performed in this years world cup... he's having such an influence, he should may be considered the most complete midfielder on the planet today because his output is tremendous, creating chances, holding possession, passing, crossing, tackling, and he's every bit as gritty as a your typical DMF. Sure his scoring has suffered since his move to the middle, but he's so much more influential, the engine of the German national team.

the main reason of the german's great world cup is the same reason of our flop: PERSONALITY, AWARENESS, GUTS.
I think it has to with fact that a good chunk of the team ply their trade with Bayern Munich and so compete against the top sides in the world UCL. Players like Muller (only 20!!!) and Lahm and Schweinsteiger. They're exposed to high pressure games from very early on and they learn to cope. Then you have the likes of Schalke, Hamburg and Werder competing in the Europa cup... you have you players like Ozil, Boateng, Khedira and Neuer competing in two-leg games vs top sides like Valencia and Liverpool and this has proven essential in building personality and temperament. This is why I am adamant that some serie a sides take the Europa Cup seriously, for their own sakes. Yes it is often a waste of time, but ultimately it builds experience. And it's an added bonus if you perform well because it builds confidence, something the German's are clearly running on with every pass, every run, every shot, etc...

just think at the match against slovakia. when quagliarella came in, he completely changed the match.....
For me, not the best of examples because at that point it was an absolute necessity that Italy throw caution to the wind. They had 4 forwards playing on (Lippi taking lessons from Mourinho) at that moment vs an unexperienced Slovakian defence who didn't know who to mark, who to track or where the danger was coming from. But I think Quagliarella is generally a gutsy player, look at all those crazy goals he's scored over the years.

pazzini is 26, cassano is 27, balotelli is 20, criscito is 24, montolivo is 25, cigarini is 24, giovinco is 23, acquafresca is 23, de silvestri is 22, marco motta is 24, de rossi is 27, poli is 21........ we don't need to look for quality in other countries.... we already got plenty of quality
Acquafresca :LOL: please, this is the same guy who said he would make Inter regret selling him... two years later :APPLAUD: Dude is rubbish.

Interesting that you didn't mention Marchisio, Santon, Candreva, Sirigu and even Aquilani... in any case, I wish I shared your enthusiasm. I've followed the under 21s since 2000 and looking at youth at this point has proven to be a waste of time. Too many externalities and what ifs (look at Coco, one the biggest WTF moments in the history of the game). Anyway, back to topic, sure you got flair and creativity, but not the right sort in midfield, unless Aquiliani is brought back in the fold. You also lack athleticism. The defence and midfield is too languid and slow, you're too easily over run in all sections of the pitch. Can you even fathom how bad things would have been had Italy made it out of their group? I like Prandelli's brand of football, he's taking italian football into the right directions, bring more dynamism and speed to the midfield. But I feel a player like Camoranesi or Ozil is something Itlay could use when you need to abruptly shift gears. There are few Italians who are technical on the ball and can go on slaloming runs, evading 2 or 3 challenges. There's Giovinco I guess, an incredible talent, but just not up to it, physically. You had Rosina but he needs to be reeled in and brought back in the fold immediately.

Anyway, like I said, you're in much much better shape than England, but there's still some way to go. IMO There needs to be a drastic shift or evolution similar to the Germans who were once rigid and stiff but now play fluid, free flowing football.
 
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