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Well I win more penalties than I concede so I'm happy with it, although it does get a bit silly when you get 3 penalties in one match for handball, so I let my keeper take them 
Fifa 11 Xbox 360/PS3
- Thread starter jonneymendoza
- Start date
mfmaxpower
International
- 29 July 2010
You're probably referring to this comment I've made a few times: breaking-down the CPU defense can be more frustrating and tedious than challenging and fun. If that's what you're referring to, then I don't think you're fully thinking through what I'm saying.
There is a difference between challenging and frustrating. I want the game to be challenging, I do not want guaranteed wins, I want it to be hard to break down the defense so that scoring a goal feels as fantastic as it should. Yes, challenges can frequently be frustrating, and then you regroup, rethink your strategy, and try something different.
The problem is in FIFA at the moment, defense has advantages that are not realistic, due to unrealistic movement/inertia/momentum mechanics and exaggerated tackling animations, among other factors. (I have some video examples I hope to post in the FIFA 12 thread later today.)
Playing against the CPU, these defensive advantages are exaggerated further. When playing h2h matches, human controllers will always make mistakes, even if slight, which open up space and create opportunities. The CPU virtual player, however, does not make similar mistakes with its "virtual analog sticks" in the same way. Think about the times you've sprinted in for a slide tackle and missed by a mile - you just don't see that type of thing from the CPU.
I'm not saying we want the CPU to make ridiculous looking blunders on WC/Legendary, just that the CPU AI can be a little too perfect, when the ultimate goal should be seeking to create a virtual opponent that plays like a human. That applies to both sides of the ball. The goal should be a more organic-like hvCPU experience, which includes both more mistakes and error by the CPU but also greater variety and creativity.
It would be one thing if the only problem was that the CPU didn't make "human-like" mistakes, but when you combine that with the unrealistic, physics-defying movement mechanics and highly-efficient tackling animations, what you get is not a realistic challenge but a frustrating experience because the CPU, and human defenses too, can do things they should not be allowed to do if they were bound by the laws of the real world.
To be blunt: there simply is too much unrealistic B.S. in FIFA. Still.
Right, heading is just heading, but like you said the crossing mechanics changes things, plus player positioning is a major factor.
Like you so well explained, using LT is absolutely critical and I'm still working on this - a big problem I'm finding is with player switching. If you're playing on manual switching, and even if you're not, sometimes I find myself not having the time to switch players and get him in proper position before the ball arrives.
On defending I swear I've conceded some headers though where no amount of LT was going to do anything, simply because my CB was ridiculously out of position. On the other end of the pitch, I rarely, if ever, score easy headers myself. I'm okay with conceding some free headers, because these do happen IRL, but I'd like some too please.
Also, while the CPU, or a human using assisted crossing, can be extremely accurate with their crossing, I just straight-up suck at crossing. You combine the double-tap for low crosses with player switching, jostling, then the actual header, and you now have more elements going into scoring from a cross than I have brain cells left to manage them.
But while I admit that I suck at scoring from headers, defending headers is a different matter. They aren't the issue for me that others are having but I certainly do concede some that make me think something isn't quite right. Headers seem a popular topic on the official forums for online players, so maybe there's more to the story that I don't know since I'm primarily offline.
Like I said above, for me personally the problem lies not just with how the CPU is programmed to play, but it's a combination of factors including unrealistic movement mechanics and overly-successful tackling animations. If you take the unrealistic elements out we'd probably be having a different discussion - like how much the offensive AI sucks.
I'm not married to playing on WC/Legendary difficulties - I'd be perfectly happy playing on Pro, if the CPU played as well on offense as it does on defense at that difficulty setting. Again, I think this comes down to the unfair/unrealistic advantages defenders have in this game.
So I'm not really all about calling the CPU a cheater, because we're being allowed to cheat too, which is why, as you know, some of us are trying to refrain from using the tackling buttons and teammate press to make it a little more fair for the CPU offense.
Did you read what we wrote on the previous page about using?
What player switching option are you using? This is a big part of my problem I think, because while I'm trying to select the correct player the CPU is already jostling for position.
You're lucky all you got was a penalty you sick bastard!
nerf
Forming triangles
From memory I think mine is set to 'Air Balls', 'Low'.
I've scored quite a high percentage of my goals in my Newcastle CM with headers, but then I do have Andy Carroll up front.
I've scored quite a high percentage of my goals in my Newcastle CM with headers, but then I do have Andy Carroll up front.
mfmaxpower
International
- 29 July 2010
Yeah, I think I just suck at headers. For me I think it's more a matter of aim with manual crossing. I was fine until 360 movement was brought in but now a high percentage of my crosses go straight at the keeper or to the top of the penalty box - can't seem to pick out a player when I'd like or even hit the penalty spot.
Really want to improve this part of my game. Maybe it's time for a serious training session.
(Speaking of training, they really need to add this to CM so I can practice with my current team!)
EatonTJ
Why Today Doesn't Suck.
- 11 April 2002
Once again, for those complaining of CPU "speed catch up" or CPU "less inertia" or CPU "super pass interception reaction times" please include a video for proof. Given how insanely easy it would be for you to at least include an EA Football World video straight from the game's instant replay, if these "cheats" are happening as frequently as some of you claim, it should be no bother to post a video for us all to see.
For while there are certainly issues with FIFA 12's AI, none of them involve "cheating" against the human... at least from my perspective.
For those who are having trouble breaking down defenses on higher difficulty modes, I suggest taking another look at your tactics AND your play-style and seeing if they are compatible.
With my latest CM, I've decided to build a counter attacking team with the limited transfer funds available. So I set up a 4-3-3 (4-2-1-3 style) and brought in some pacey wingers (80-85+ for dribbling, speed, acc) and adjusted my tactics accordingly (deep line, low pressing, high tempo, risky passing). Initially, I didn't have much success and was frustrated... I had players out of position defensively, no space for my attackers to exploit, and games suffered from a lot of midfield turnovers. I had invested in these shiny new wingers, and I wasn't able to get any enjoyment out of them.
So, I went back to the tactics to see if I needed to adjust work-rates, or arrows, or something... and that was when I realized that I hadn't been playing to my tactics. Although I had set-up a counter attack, I (as controller of the players) wasn't playing patient defense, I was pressing with my forwards (getting them out of position for a counter), and I wasn't moving the ball up the field fast enough. So then I tried playing a few games as my tactics intended... and lo and behold, everything fell into place.
Now I waited to press until the ball got near my 2 defensive midfielders to double team, and suddenly I was having all the counter attack scoring opportunities I wanted. A defender or DM would gobble up the ball, pass it forward to my creative attacking midfielder, and with a quick turn up field, my team of sprinters is on the fly with a quick 4 man counter. A couple of give-and-go's, a dribbling move, or an overlap from a fullback and I'm either whipping in a cross or jinking into the box for a shot. And while my teammates AI certainly wasn't as creative as I'd like it to be (you don't see any overlapping runs from players other than wingbacks), once I adjusted my play-style to fit my tactics, I had the exact sort of success I had planned.
So while I understand the frustrations that can be had on offense in FIFA 12, I suggest re-examining the tactical side of things, and what you are asking your AI teammates to do... and then try and play accordingly. Success can certainly be had many ways, even setting up an old fashioned long-ball-to-target-man-flick-on-to-speedy-striker can be effective if done correctly. As can short passing with pressing, or counter attack, or variants in between.
There isn't a lot of mystery to it, but as the controller of whomever has the ball, the human needs to make sure to follow the team's strategy for best success... at least in my experience.
For while there are certainly issues with FIFA 12's AI, none of them involve "cheating" against the human... at least from my perspective.
For those who are having trouble breaking down defenses on higher difficulty modes, I suggest taking another look at your tactics AND your play-style and seeing if they are compatible.
With my latest CM, I've decided to build a counter attacking team with the limited transfer funds available. So I set up a 4-3-3 (4-2-1-3 style) and brought in some pacey wingers (80-85+ for dribbling, speed, acc) and adjusted my tactics accordingly (deep line, low pressing, high tempo, risky passing). Initially, I didn't have much success and was frustrated... I had players out of position defensively, no space for my attackers to exploit, and games suffered from a lot of midfield turnovers. I had invested in these shiny new wingers, and I wasn't able to get any enjoyment out of them.
So, I went back to the tactics to see if I needed to adjust work-rates, or arrows, or something... and that was when I realized that I hadn't been playing to my tactics. Although I had set-up a counter attack, I (as controller of the players) wasn't playing patient defense, I was pressing with my forwards (getting them out of position for a counter), and I wasn't moving the ball up the field fast enough. So then I tried playing a few games as my tactics intended... and lo and behold, everything fell into place.
Now I waited to press until the ball got near my 2 defensive midfielders to double team, and suddenly I was having all the counter attack scoring opportunities I wanted. A defender or DM would gobble up the ball, pass it forward to my creative attacking midfielder, and with a quick turn up field, my team of sprinters is on the fly with a quick 4 man counter. A couple of give-and-go's, a dribbling move, or an overlap from a fullback and I'm either whipping in a cross or jinking into the box for a shot. And while my teammates AI certainly wasn't as creative as I'd like it to be (you don't see any overlapping runs from players other than wingbacks), once I adjusted my play-style to fit my tactics, I had the exact sort of success I had planned.
So while I understand the frustrations that can be had on offense in FIFA 12, I suggest re-examining the tactical side of things, and what you are asking your AI teammates to do... and then try and play accordingly. Success can certainly be had many ways, even setting up an old fashioned long-ball-to-target-man-flick-on-to-speedy-striker can be effective if done correctly. As can short passing with pressing, or counter attack, or variants in between.
There isn't a lot of mystery to it, but as the controller of whomever has the ball, the human needs to make sure to follow the team's strategy for best success... at least in my experience.
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EatonTJ
Why Today Doesn't Suck.
- 11 April 2002
Getting better at headers is huge at the higher difficulty levels. My best suggestion for retraining your self is to not worry about the direction of aiming the header, but focusing on the direction to attack the ball.
Basically, aim the joystick the direction of your player to where he will meet the ball NOT the direction you want the ball to go. On defense, this commonly means you need to aim the joystick "backwards" of where you'd like the ball to go. For example, if a cross is coming from the bottom of the screen toward the goal area, and your defender is below the the attacker, then you need to hold the joystick UP (toward the attacker) to intercept the ball. If you hold DOWN (toward the ball), or LEFT or RIGHT (clearance up field or over touch) then your player will reposition that direction giving the forward room to finish. By aiming your joystick toward the CPU forward, you will intercept the ball and push the CPU forward out of position.
Conversely, when in attack, you typically want to hold the joystick in the direction towards the ball. When you are the attacker in the same scenario as above, you would want to hold the joystick DOWN to push the defender out of your way and meet the ball as quickly as possible.
Certainly, not all long balls are the same, and you will have to adjust accordingly. But the main thing is to work on positioning the player to the ball first, and then worry about aiming. With bigger players like Drogba, shoving defenders out of your way before aiming will net you a lot of great heading chances. Take advantage.
I've also found that heading the ball back the direction its coming from is more accurate than a far post flick on. Jsut like real life.
That's called anticipation not cheating and that is percisely how to beat the CPU, by executing a move that is not anticipated. I'm sure you will have noticed many times when you did something unintentionally and it worked. For example you may have had two defenders closing down on the ball and you did nothing but continue on a straight path and yet no tackle was made! This happens, b/c the AI anticipates that you will do something, and upon doing nothing the AI is fooled and your through. Note that the anticipation is greatly exaggerated when your in the last third, and this is where you need trickery and confidence to take players on. If you always take the obvious pass or dribble you'll either lose the ball or get nowhere. Spend a few games doing counter intuitive things and watch how much space you create.About all the "CPU don't cheat" debate, I'm still awaiting for someone who can explain why cpu players suffer less from inertia and why they can turn quickier than a human player.
Either they let CPU players do turn quicker and without any kind of penalty (programmed cheating) or either they simply have nanosecond adjustments to turn, in wich case it plainly shows how badly programmed it's movement physiscs in general, because most of the turns done by the CPU are absolutely undoable by a human with a pad due to inertia and other forces kicking in, and even nanosecond adjustments SHOULDN'T override inertia or other forces, in fact it's quite the opposite, if you turn during a turn during a turn in reality, you're going to experiment opposite forces that will make you fall flat, look stupid or just slower.
Though everything seems to be a case of simply pathetic and lazy programming, there's always those stances in whic you see how cheap are the shortcuts that the programmers chose:
For example, I've seen instances in which I pressbut my player takes 1 second to do the pass due to his circumstances. But the CPU player that WILL intercept the pass starts to react to it and run to the point of intersection BEFORE the pass is executed. That simply shows how CPU is having exact information that shouldn't have in advance. The same happens with dribbling, there are times in which the cpu starts to react to a sliding tackle the moment I press the button, not when the actual animation of sliding begins.
It shouldn't be like that, CPU AI should react to things when they happen, not when the system triggers the events internally. It's as if I had onscreen warnings of where the cpu is going to pass or when they're going to slide tackle me. If a human had this information in advance in a match, we'll call it cheating. Thus, I call this CPU AI Cheats.
Just two cents about how "unfair" and basic and cheap AI is right now...
Murkurial
League 1
- 21 August 2008
http: // www.easports.com/media/play/video/41971994
Sure, I scored here, but 9/10 times, I'm getting knocked off the ball.
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mfmaxpower
International
- 29 July 2010
I didn't want to post any vids until I had them all ready, but I saw your two posts and thought I'd go ahead and put this example up. This isn't the best example and I wish I knew how to edit the flv replay vids to zoom in and stuff, but it'll have to do for the moment. I have quite a few other replay clips that I'm going to use to highlight my points made in the FIFA 12 thread. Hopefully I can get those up this weekend.
Anyways, "cheating" is such a loaded word, personally I think we should avoid using it. You may remember from my post above that my argument centers on three things: 1) defending is over-powered in general (for both CPU and human players); 2) unrealistic movement mechanics are a problem, primarily with off the ball movements which enable defenders to react/respond unrealistically; and 3) the CPU, because of its programming with near instant response times, gains an even larger advantage on defense because of the unrealistic freedom of movement than do human players, with their more varying degree of response times and general range of error. (Didn't explain that well. Sorry, it's late.)
The two videos below highlight one instance where the CPU's unrealistic response time, combined with a lack of momentum in sharp turns, allows the defender to react in a way that a person in the real world never could. Now this isn't the best example because the CPU defender fails to take advantage of his quick response, but his movement - note the fullback's quick pivot - is still a decent example nonetheless. As I said, more examples to come. Honestly, to really see what's happening you probably will need to watch it in full screen.
So here's what's going on: my Valencia player in Blue (Fernandes?) receives the ball on the wing. The Stoke City defender cuts him off and at 0:04 I initiate a quick turn. In response, the Stoke City defender does an immediate pivot. In the real word, if that Stoke City defender attempted a quick pivot at the pace he's going at, he's going to go tumbling over, if not break an ankle.
YouTube - No Momentum valencia
Here's a closer look at the play, now in Slo-Mo. Notice how a) there is no indication of momentum and b) the defender is able to turn - pivot, really - and face a different direction immediately, and very, very unrealistically:
YouTube - Slo Mo No Momentum Valencia
Like I said, I don't want to call this stuff cheating, because in truth we are bound by the saw laws of physics in FIFA as CPU players are (and I have several videos I'll be posting to show just this).
So again, the problem for me is in FIFA 11 defending is overpowered because of a combination of things, namely unrealistic off-the-ball movements (personally, I've had little issue with dribbling mechanics) and the AI's instantaneous reaction times. And again, this isn't just about playing against a difficult CPU defense, but also about making defending for me too easy as well.
Robbery
stay cool its a Robbery
IMO you can easily call it cheating because as a human player you are never ever able to do the same. As a human player you have a natural response time and every cpu player should have the same. It is so easy.
You are fighting against opponents with non-human response time. They have an advantage, a huge advantage, and that is kind of cheating. They know what you are doing next in a non second. That is cheating. For me it is the perfect example for cheating. When i play a game and i can't do the same things like the CPU can do it is cheating. And as a human i'm not able to react this fast like the cpu do. It is just not possible for me.
When the CPU defender is guarding the winger and for some reason before any pass has been executed he starts running like a mad men to an exact point where 1 or 2 seconds later my player WILL do a bad pass, then you know the CPU simply KNOWS what's going next before it happen in the game.
Why? Bloody easy, because CPU AI has access to information that shouldn't have. It's cheesy programming at best to try to hide the primitive AI of the CPU.
Calling this anticipation is simply a simple attempt to defend what's impossible to defend, that is: the CPU is allowed to do things that I can't do with my pad. Even if you put the pad in the hands of a robot, the robot couldn't do what the CPU does. This is NOT the way.
I'm not sayin the cpu is scripted to win or bullshit like this. All I'm saying is something OBVIOUS from a programming point, and that's simply that the CPU AI of your opponents is not fair and is deliberately programmed in a way that makes the game worse, this means making the experience unfair. There some obvious things going on we all experience. Explain me very precisely:
1)Why do my players fall more to the ground than my opponents no matter the circumstances? If it was a fair experience, we would all experience diverse scenarios. But we don't. Our players fall a lot more to the ground than our opponents. And our players "stumble" a lot more without the chance to recover from the stumble.
2)Why CPU can accelerate WHILE turning while I can't? Look at this:
http://www.ea.com/uk/football/videos/ugc/39414538
My 90 acceleration/speed greatly skilled and quick player against a MUCH slower and LESS agile Metz defender. Suddenly, the CPU is able to perfectly know where I'm going, react without any kind of inertia or momentum, going from a standing pose to TURN AND INSTANTLY ACCELERATE to maximum speed without any stride and not only catching me up, but even winning the ball by one or 2 meters! From the moment the CPU defender is totally standing to the moment he gets the ball is just ridiculous.
A human player WON'T be able to do this. Even a robot using a pad. And your CPU teammates WON'T DO this, beacuse your teammates AI is generally a dumbed down version in order to balance things. Another unfair logic...
3) CPU knowing where you're going to move or the exact moment in which you will slide tackle. As explained in the initial post, the cpu knows what's happening not by reading what's happening in the game, but what's going to happen next. The cpu doesn't react by "watching" where are you headed and guessing. The ai is programmed to ASK the app where you're going, so that's why you will never wrongfoot the AI, they just know what's next, you can't wrong-foot them in any way!
The thing goes on and on... But now it's the turn for those who, ignoring how programming works, will simply ask for proofs when they actually never give any proof of what they say. So show me your videos in which you do what the cpu is allowed to do. I'm eager to watch them.
nerf
Forming triangles
To me the word 'cheating' implies intent, and leads to people accusing the CPU of actively deciding when to deviously cheat at opportune moments (which I think is nonsense, nobody writes AI that way).
I think the Valencia/Stoke example is a hiccup, not intentional. Something artificial happening due to a flaw in character locomotion. The way that the defender then stands frozen still for a few frames afterwards suggests that something broke down.
If there are errors in physics/animation/locomotion, there are errors. I take the point about reaction speeds feeling unrealistic generally, but it's not as if things like the Valencia/Stoke example are happening constantly. Here's a pretty much identical example:
YouTube - FIFA 11 Demo - Messi goal
...where the defender did not instantly stop and pivot. If the CPU was intentionally programmed with an advantage to not obey the laws of physics then it would happen all the time.
The Pique/Gourcuff video is not a problem, in my eyes. Do you really think the defender is gaining a temporary speed boost to catch you up because he doesn't want you to score? Because it looks to me like that's just the disparity between dribble speed and sprint speed.
I think it's equally interesting that Gourcuff has lower attributes for both Balance and Strength than Pique and yet shoved him away like he did. Perhaps it was the vicious elbow to the face
In the Nantes-Metz video, the attacker makes a hard 90 degree cut which scrubs off all his speed. The defender is jockeying at a slow speed (allowing a sharper turn than if he was running), has a much shorter distance to the ball, and can use his arm to block the attacker off. Neither does he use clairvoyance, because he turns only when the ball has left the attacker's boot. I don't see anything there that the CPU is doing that you couldn't have done if you'd been defending.
I think the Valencia/Stoke example is a hiccup, not intentional. Something artificial happening due to a flaw in character locomotion. The way that the defender then stands frozen still for a few frames afterwards suggests that something broke down.
If there are errors in physics/animation/locomotion, there are errors. I take the point about reaction speeds feeling unrealistic generally, but it's not as if things like the Valencia/Stoke example are happening constantly. Here's a pretty much identical example:
YouTube - FIFA 11 Demo - Messi goal
...where the defender did not instantly stop and pivot. If the CPU was intentionally programmed with an advantage to not obey the laws of physics then it would happen all the time.
The Pique/Gourcuff video is not a problem, in my eyes. Do you really think the defender is gaining a temporary speed boost to catch you up because he doesn't want you to score? Because it looks to me like that's just the disparity between dribble speed and sprint speed.
I think it's equally interesting that Gourcuff has lower attributes for both Balance and Strength than Pique and yet shoved him away like he did. Perhaps it was the vicious elbow to the face
In the Nantes-Metz video, the attacker makes a hard 90 degree cut which scrubs off all his speed. The defender is jockeying at a slow speed (allowing a sharper turn than if he was running), has a much shorter distance to the ball, and can use his arm to block the attacker off. Neither does he use clairvoyance, because he turns only when the ball has left the attacker's boot. I don't see anything there that the CPU is doing that you couldn't have done if you'd been defending.
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mfmaxpower
International
- 29 July 2010
And this is why I don't like using the word "cheating" (and I shouldn't have), because it gets people focused on what can be an unproductive and ultimately pointless debate. "Cheating" basically implies intentional wrong-doing, and I don't think we know enough about the programming processes and what the devs are trying to do to conclude that the game is intentionally programmed to give advantages to the CPU over the human player.
That's why I like to focus on the clear evidence in the videos that depict unrealistic elements in the game that should be fixed. Sometimes the evidence depicts a CPU advantage, but I have others that I'll post later that conversely show how the game gives me an unrealistic advantage at times. Like I've said, off the ball movement and the tackling animations are unrealistic to the point that I try to limit myself from using the tackle and teammate pressure buttons to as little as possible, just to make defending for me more challenging and realistic.
I don't think any of the vids depict what I'd call "cheating" but rather, like nerf said above, "flaws" or "errors" in the programming of the game's animation/physics systems. I totally 100% agree with nerf: the CPU is not programmed to be devious or intentionally break the laws of in-game physics at opportune moments, nobody writes AI that way. (um, right?)
This discussion is really about two separate issues in the game:
1) Unrealistic movements/physics/animations
2) CPU player response times
Robbery, you make a valid argument here:
Except for what you put in bold is not exactly correct - the CPU doesn't know what you're going to do next, it can't predict your moves, but what it does have, like you mentioned, is in-human, near-instantaneous response times. You're right, as humans we are not able to react as fast, thus that gives the CPU an advantage.
But is it an unfair advantage in itself? I'm not so sure. As nerf said in an earlier post, playing against ultra-fast CPU response times is what comes when you play on Legendary difficulty settings, and it's an advantage AI is frequently provided in video games to make the CPU a more formidable foe against a human that has the advantages of greater creativity and unpredictability.
And here's the thing: would the CPU response times even be an issue for us if realistic physics/movement etc were implemented correctly? Is the problem the AI's response time, or is it that the CPU player was able to pivot and turn on a dime, which like nerf said has more to do with an error in programming?
Maybe CPU reaction/response times needs to be slowed down ever so slightly. Maybe. Again I'm not sure, just because it's hard to capture clear-cut examples on video, showing inarguable evidence that the CPU is reacting too fast. I did have a keeper foot-save one of my shots yesterday that had my jaw drop but upon watching the replay I didn't see anything that was necessarily beyond the realm of possibility. Would that keeper (I think it might have been against Stoke too; certainly neither the best or worst keeper in the game though) have made the same save in real life? Unlikely. But still possible. Is that "cheating"?
I've also found it makes quite a bit a difference (duh) depending on your passing settings - playing manual this year means a much slower passing velocity in general. Playing around with assisted settings yesterday, and then full manual (my normal), I could really notice the benefits of greater ommph on the ball with assisted settings - it gives the next player even more time on the ball because the CPU defender gets their a little later than if the ball had been passed using manual controls. If sliders are introduced next year, one for CPU/AI reaction/response times would be nice to account for the extra-split second it takes manual passers to play a similar pass as an assisted user.
Personally I believe a lot can be done simply by ensuring proper momentum is the game, so even if the CPU is able to react in its decisions quicker than humanly possible, CPU players would be not be able to perform unrealistic physics-defying movements. A couple new animations here, a few animations slowed-down over there, and a few more tweaks might be enough.
For example, in PES there is an animation that causes a defender to sort of stumble when he's caught going the wrong way. Now I'm not a big fan of the particular animation and it feels slightly exaggerated to me, but it does do what FIFA didn't in the case of my replay example: it puts the defender out of the play for a brief second or two, simulating the effects of inertia, and punishes a defender for being out of position, rushing in etc., or rewards the offensive player for a nice move. This works both for the CPU and human players, and it's what FIFA desperately needs.
@nerf: I agree for the most part, and you're right the Valencia/Stoke example is not happening constantly, but I think we're talking about more than a "hiccup" here because in general player movement without the ball has a greater advantage in FIFA 11 than it should, which I believe could be the number #1 contributor to why so many people are complaining about over-powered defenses. Obviously it should be the case that players move better without the ball, but as it is now it's too free/lacking momentum/quick to turn/jockey, etc., and the sum of many tiny instances of unrealistic maybe equals a substantial issue - one tiny hiccup is one thing, but everyone knows what it's like when you cant get rid of them!
I have more vids that I'll post, some showing instances of unrealism that are worse than others. The Stoke/Valencia instance wasn't a gamebreaker (I actually thoroughly enjoyed that match for the most part - Valencia is one of my favorites to play with this year, real fun passing team, and I even scored a header!), however in another match, which sadly I somehow ruined the replay, uploading the wrong portion of it or something, there was a case in which I was 1v1 with the last defender, he was sidestepping backwards and I turned him around with one of my better-timed skill moves, but he was able to respond and react, and turn his body, again pivoting, and then foot-poke the ball away. It was infuriating because the game ended 0-0 and that should've been an on-goal opportunity for me (though I suck at 1vKeeper situations).
But anyways, my point is that all of this little stuff does add up. A little more inertia there, a little more momentum here, a little slower response times over there, and you could have a much better balanced game imo.
(And I want to reiterate that I'm not posting these examples and making these arguments with the intention of them being damning evidence of FIFA's lack of realism, or that it's such a horrible game, etc. That couldn't be further from the truth. I think FIFA is very, very close, in gameplay terms at least, to being downright fantastic, and though my experiences can run hot or cold, I am thoroughly enjoying my FIFA matches (now that I've abandoned CM until a patch is released!)).
That's why I like to focus on the clear evidence in the videos that depict unrealistic elements in the game that should be fixed. Sometimes the evidence depicts a CPU advantage, but I have others that I'll post later that conversely show how the game gives me an unrealistic advantage at times. Like I've said, off the ball movement and the tackling animations are unrealistic to the point that I try to limit myself from using the tackle and teammate pressure buttons to as little as possible, just to make defending for me more challenging and realistic.
I don't think any of the vids depict what I'd call "cheating" but rather, like nerf said above, "flaws" or "errors" in the programming of the game's animation/physics systems. I totally 100% agree with nerf: the CPU is not programmed to be devious or intentionally break the laws of in-game physics at opportune moments, nobody writes AI that way. (um, right?)
This discussion is really about two separate issues in the game:
1) Unrealistic movements/physics/animations
2) CPU player response times
Robbery, you make a valid argument here:
Except for what you put in bold is not exactly correct - the CPU doesn't know what you're going to do next, it can't predict your moves, but what it does have, like you mentioned, is in-human, near-instantaneous response times. You're right, as humans we are not able to react as fast, thus that gives the CPU an advantage.
But is it an unfair advantage in itself? I'm not so sure. As nerf said in an earlier post, playing against ultra-fast CPU response times is what comes when you play on Legendary difficulty settings, and it's an advantage AI is frequently provided in video games to make the CPU a more formidable foe against a human that has the advantages of greater creativity and unpredictability.
And here's the thing: would the CPU response times even be an issue for us if realistic physics/movement etc were implemented correctly? Is the problem the AI's response time, or is it that the CPU player was able to pivot and turn on a dime, which like nerf said has more to do with an error in programming?
Maybe CPU reaction/response times needs to be slowed down ever so slightly. Maybe. Again I'm not sure, just because it's hard to capture clear-cut examples on video, showing inarguable evidence that the CPU is reacting too fast. I did have a keeper foot-save one of my shots yesterday that had my jaw drop but upon watching the replay I didn't see anything that was necessarily beyond the realm of possibility. Would that keeper (I think it might have been against Stoke too; certainly neither the best or worst keeper in the game though) have made the same save in real life? Unlikely. But still possible. Is that "cheating"?
I've also found it makes quite a bit a difference (duh) depending on your passing settings - playing manual this year means a much slower passing velocity in general. Playing around with assisted settings yesterday, and then full manual (my normal), I could really notice the benefits of greater ommph on the ball with assisted settings - it gives the next player even more time on the ball because the CPU defender gets their a little later than if the ball had been passed using manual controls. If sliders are introduced next year, one for CPU/AI reaction/response times would be nice to account for the extra-split second it takes manual passers to play a similar pass as an assisted user.
Personally I believe a lot can be done simply by ensuring proper momentum is the game, so even if the CPU is able to react in its decisions quicker than humanly possible, CPU players would be not be able to perform unrealistic physics-defying movements. A couple new animations here, a few animations slowed-down over there, and a few more tweaks might be enough.
For example, in PES there is an animation that causes a defender to sort of stumble when he's caught going the wrong way. Now I'm not a big fan of the particular animation and it feels slightly exaggerated to me, but it does do what FIFA didn't in the case of my replay example: it puts the defender out of the play for a brief second or two, simulating the effects of inertia, and punishes a defender for being out of position, rushing in etc., or rewards the offensive player for a nice move. This works both for the CPU and human players, and it's what FIFA desperately needs.
@nerf: I agree for the most part, and you're right the Valencia/Stoke example is not happening constantly, but I think we're talking about more than a "hiccup" here because in general player movement without the ball has a greater advantage in FIFA 11 than it should, which I believe could be the number #1 contributor to why so many people are complaining about over-powered defenses. Obviously it should be the case that players move better without the ball, but as it is now it's too free/lacking momentum/quick to turn/jockey, etc., and the sum of many tiny instances of unrealistic maybe equals a substantial issue - one tiny hiccup is one thing, but everyone knows what it's like when you cant get rid of them!
I have more vids that I'll post, some showing instances of unrealism that are worse than others. The Stoke/Valencia instance wasn't a gamebreaker (I actually thoroughly enjoyed that match for the most part - Valencia is one of my favorites to play with this year, real fun passing team, and I even scored a header!), however in another match, which sadly I somehow ruined the replay, uploading the wrong portion of it or something, there was a case in which I was 1v1 with the last defender, he was sidestepping backwards and I turned him around with one of my better-timed skill moves, but he was able to respond and react, and turn his body, again pivoting, and then foot-poke the ball away. It was infuriating because the game ended 0-0 and that should've been an on-goal opportunity for me (though I suck at 1vKeeper situations).
But anyways, my point is that all of this little stuff does add up. A little more inertia there, a little more momentum here, a little slower response times over there, and you could have a much better balanced game imo.
(And I want to reiterate that I'm not posting these examples and making these arguments with the intention of them being damning evidence of FIFA's lack of realism, or that it's such a horrible game, etc. That couldn't be further from the truth. I think FIFA is very, very close, in gameplay terms at least, to being downright fantastic, and though my experiences can run hot or cold, I am thoroughly enjoying my FIFA matches (now that I've abandoned CM until a patch is released!)).
EatonTJ
Why Today Doesn't Suck.
- 11 April 2002
That looked a good goal. I don't have the game in front of me at the moment, but I imagine that Gourcuff and Pique have similar speed overall, but Gourcuff will be slowed by dribbling (esp. with you sacrificing a faster straight line dribble to turn a bit to get into better scoring position), allowing Pique to recover some ground.
Still Gourcuff holds the advantage in positioning and keeps his body between the defender and ball and puts a nice finish on the ball. I don't see a problem.
If there was "cheating", I'd expect to see Pique make an unrealistic recovery or tackle to prevent Gourcuff from shooting. I didn't see either.
Thank you for the video though, if you get one that does show these things, please post it.
EatonTJ
Why Today Doesn't Suck.
- 11 April 2002
Thanks for the videos, I can see what you are complaining about. The defensive full back does stop at nearly the same time as your winger, which I can understand would raise some suspicion.
However, I do think there are alternative explanations other than "cheating" (for lack of a better term) for what happened. The best and most simple explanation as to why the fullback stopped at the same time as your winger, is that the fullback anticipated your winger stopping and did the same accordingly. To me, it looks like the fullback had the correct pursuit angle on your winger, and if you'd taken another down the line, the fullback would have tackled your player. So it's possible the AI opponent was playing the cutback and that is why he was ready to stop so quickly. I know if I'm in control of a defender and anticipate a cutback, I can usually stop pretty quickly if I control it correctly (let go of sprint, use jockey for a split second before stopping, etc.).
Now, perhaps this gives EA too much credit... but I do think that EA has purposely worked on defending against cutbacks and may finally have programmed some defensive AI that gives it some better anticipation like a human opponent might possess.
Or, it could be a fluke and the defender stopped for some other unknown reason.
As to the nature of the stop, I do agree that if the fullback was running at full speed he should not be able to stop so quickly, BUT it is really hard to tell if the defender was running at full speed all the way up to the final moment before the stop... or whether the fullback slowed from a sprint first. I know that a player controlled defender can stop on a dime as long as not sprinting, so there isn't any "cheating" in an AI defender doing the same. No arguments from me for it being unrealistic, but it is fair between both AI and human.
Seeing Nerf's video, and knowing that I perform cutbacks all the time, I certainly don't think the AI has some special ability to defeat them. I also use the AI's momentum against them when dribbling (for example, in your video, had I noticed the AI had the pursuit angle on my winger... I may have had my winger come to a complete stop, (to stop the defender), and then quickly continued down the line. That move works all the time, and takes advantage of the AI inertia...)
Again, thanks for the video, please post more if you have an opportunity.
EatonTJ
Why Today Doesn't Suck.
- 11 April 2002
I don't see anything wrong with this video. You attempted to push the ball past a defender who had inside position on you and it didn't work. In order for that to work, I would expect a HUGE advantage in speed/strength/quickness which apparently, there was not.
Also Drekkard, I completely disagree with your thinking the AI reacts to your button presses before they are actually executed on screen. I agree with Nerf, that this method of AI programming is infeasible for a myriad of reasons.
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nerf
Forming triangles
Well, hang on, I'm being slightly mis-quoted
. I only said that the AI is not programmed with the ability to select when it is an opportune time to 'cheat'. It's difficult enough to code AI in the first place without then deliberately infusing it with some kind of devious soul.I think Drekkard is saying that the CPU responds the same millisecond that your button is pressed, rather than responding genuinely to the resulting action (between which there's potentially a short delay). I guess that's theoretically possible, but personally I'm not convinced it is the case, I suspect it's just the very quick reactions that could make it seem that way, imo. It's not something I've ever thought I'd seen.
Generally I just think there's disproportionate paranoia about the AI. In an imperfect artificial environment, artificial things are going to happen; sometimes to your detriment, sometimes not. Of course there are elements that could be balanced better, like mfmaxpower said, but that's about the extent of it in my view.
Not only is theorically possible, it's just how it's programmed. I know my part about programming to know how it's done and believe me, CPU AI does read what's happening directly from the engine, not guessing what's going to happen.
Now, doing an AI the tries to read the game and react to it it's something never seen in a sports game, it's brutally hard to code and would require several CPUs to process. I understand they can't do that, but please, don't make it that flagrant. I've had instances in which the CPU player, as I said, stopped marking someone to run to the exact point where a pass would go misdirected, BEFORE the pass is done. Contrary to what you say, this is MUCH easier to code, MUCH easier to process and it's how it's done currently. CPU simply KNOWS a pass is going to land in the XYZ coordinates and reacts, even if in the screen tha passing animation haven't started, because of contextual reasons.
This happens and shows how the CPU can access information that shouldn't have. The app uses the engine information in this exact same way to produce inverse kinematics, for example, so don't be so surprised they simply took this literally shortcut approach to make the AI more competent at "reading" the game.
Another proof of this is that CPU knows exactly where the ball is going to land everytime. They don't try to determine the trajectory of the ball frame by frame, they simply KNOW from start where the ball will go, they process the shortest way to the ball and make it happen. It's bloody simple to understand. If the CPU was "reacting" frame by frame" to the game, we would see CURVED runs to the ball, miscalculations of the trajectories or even players that don't take the shortest straight way to the ball. It never happens, though, because it works as I described. I hope I made it clear on how it works.
So, at least they should introduce some way to assure that the cpu don't react when there aren't visual proofs that something is happening. Even the best robot you can produce with a pad in his hands wouldn't have this information, it should react to what happens in the screen, not to the information that the app has internally.
Forget the word "cheat", I use it to describe this shortcuts, it has nothing to do with the game intentionally doing something. It's simply the cheap way they program the cpu. I wish they had at least half of the talent and genius of nba 2k series AI, that put Fifa to shame, and it has sliders to customize what you don't like. That's the way.
And about the example of video I put, I see nobody taking into consideration strides and foot planting. My striker does a first touch inside and the CPU turns and accelerate without making a single stride. I guess you don't give any importance to this... Have you ever seen your own player turn and accelerate without a single step? I guess you haven't...
Murkurial
League 1
- 21 August 2008
I did.
9/10 out of ten he would've taken that ball. My point with the video (I was the one controlling Gourcuff btw) was how he covered that ground in a ridiculously short amount of time while I'm holding turbo to try and get away.
I wasn't trying to run that slowly and there's no way he goes from getting bumped off to being on my back before I can take the shot.
Anyone else wanna give the vid a look and see if you don't find a problem with the speed at which Pique covered that ground? Like I said, I got lucky this time. Normally I'm getting smashed off the ball.
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EatonTJ
Why Today Doesn't Suck.
- 11 April 2002
Fair enough, now that I better understand what point you are making, I will certainly concede that as soon as the human player inputs the button press, the AI starts "reacting' (somewhat "perfectly" as well, as on a direct path to where the ball is going) regardless of whatever response/animation time it takes for the action to play out on screen. I just never considered this "cheating" as some twitchy fingered human could perform similarly (at least in response to when an animation begins) under the same rules governing the AI.
However, with your other examples of "cheating" I take issue. I genuinely have not noticed any stumbling or acceleration advantage had by the AI, where the human players suffer from this greater than the AI. Neither have I noticed the AI having the ability to simply dribble around my controlled defender because the AI "knows" where my defender will be and adjusts with perfect reactions (as complained about by in the past by others, possibly yourself, I can't remember).
I don't think your video proves anything one way or another. I don't see a massive explosion of acceleration by the defender to prevent you from getting the ball. It looks more like the defender bumps into while you are trying to push the ball past which slows your attacker down, and therefore the defender (who was closer to the ball to begin with) gets to the ball first. It certainly doesn't disprove your complaint, only that I don't see your complaint evidenced in the video.
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EatonTJ
Why Today Doesn't Suck.
- 11 April 2002
I've watched the video again, and it appears to me that both players slow down at the very beginning... Gourcuff has to slow down to push Pique (that's just the way pushing works, can't push some one backwards if you are outrunning them) and then creates some separation over the next 10 yards or so on the dribble and then holds off Pique for the shot.
Considering that Gourcuff isn't a speedster and is dribbling the ball on a curved path, I don't think it's unrealistic that Pique eventually catches him, since he's running without the ball on a straight path to intercept.
If this had been Pique chasing down a speed merchant with full stamina, then yes, I would be suspicious of some possible speed boosting... but what I saw in your video wasn't egregious enough to certify "cheating" in my book.
I certainly welcome others impressions, but that is how I see it.
mfmaxpower
International
- 29 July 2010
It's really hard to tell IMO, but I don't think anything is going on that should be considered "egregious" or a form of cheating. Although I say that, there have been enough complaints of defenders too easily catching dribblers from behind - and I think we can all agree that sprint speed has certainly been slowed down - that I am inclined to think something might be a little off.
If any of you watched the Man Utd - Spurs match, I actually thought of this issue at one point in the second half when Bale made a streaking diagonal run (with the ball) across the pitch and Rafael sprinted after him, right on his heals. Now in FIFA, my experiences want me to conclude that Rafael would've caught him - I can picture the new 360 jostling animations now! - however that did not happen in the match and Rafael stayed behind Bale.
Now I'm not saying this proves anything, or that my expectation for how that same scenario in FIFA would play out is correct, I just wanted to throw that thought out there. Personally I'm now comfortable with how the game works when trying to beat a man, using the right stick knock-ons, etc. that these situations aren't as big an issue to me as some of the other stuff.
(Come to think of it, maybe the issue with Murkurial's vid is the same as the issue I had with the Valencia-Stoke instance, that the defender just responds, and maybe turns, a tad too quickly. It wouldn't take much to make a huge difference. So maybe it's not an issue of speed and acceleration as much as it may be with response time and the turning animation? Just a thought.)
I'm on the fence at moment on this issue and examples like Murkurial's, but I am sympathetic to the argument that something may be going on, I just don't know what.
nerf
Forming triangles
I didn't say that, but anyway... I don't doubt at all that the CPU knows the coordinates of where the ball is going to end up and responds according to that knowledge, I'd always assumed it would, I was only saying that I personally haven't noticed evidence of the CPU knowing that before the ball actually leaves the attacker's foot.
After all, if your player has a significant delay before he connects with the ball, you can overwrite your 'queued' button press with a different command as long as you press it before the action happens. So in theory you could see the CPU reacting to your first command. It's just not something I've seen.
How do interceptions and tackles occur in real life? the defender often moves well before the ball is played. If defenders were to wait for visual proof that something is happening before making a move than football would be high scoring game. I think you would agree it doesn't work that way in real life, so why should it be that way in the game?
It's one thing to say that the CPU takes the shortest path to the ball etc calculations etc and another to say that it reacts to the buttons you are pressing. In my opinion the CPU reacts to what it thinks you are going to do not what you actually do. I see nothing that suggests AI reacts to the users controller. the AI starts moving towards your pass as your press it or even before you press it because it is programmed to cut off your options especially the obvious ones.
In this video (legendary), forlan takes off , the defender shuffles slightly towards Forlan to prevent a direct pass, ball is slipped in behind him for a through pass. The defenders shuffle is clearly anticipation. He covered route one, so I took route two...sometimes you will have to take route 3.
YouTube - aguero thru
in this video (also on legendary), Reyes gets passed Rise on the wing but Rise is still chasing and now he is faced with a double team, the defender ahead of him wants to cut off his run while expecting Rise to cover any attempt to go infeild. Clearly anticipation. A slight movement to the inside before continuing was enough to beat them both.
YouTube - reyes
You also mentioned your players tend to fall over easily, this has to do with your movement. The CPU doesn't fall as often because it uses the right speed and direction at the right time. The better your movement becomes the less you will fall. For instance, I discovered recently that tapping sprint continuosly (if it is set on analog) gives you an enourmous advantage in physical battles and in changing direction when you have possesion. It allows you to make those sharp turns while keeping the ball close enough to your feet all while keeping your acceleartion so you aren't knocked of the ball easily. If you get it right it takes dribbling at defenders to a new level. The speed change is barely noticeable on the tele camera but the effect is clear.
It's one thing to say that the CPU takes the shortest path to the ball etc calculations etc and another to say that it reacts to the buttons you are pressing. In my opinion the CPU reacts to what it thinks you are going to do not what you actually do. I see nothing that suggests AI reacts to the users controller. the AI starts moving towards your pass as your press it or even before you press it because it is programmed to cut off your options especially the obvious ones.
In this video (legendary), forlan takes off , the defender shuffles slightly towards Forlan to prevent a direct pass, ball is slipped in behind him for a through pass. The defenders shuffle is clearly anticipation. He covered route one, so I took route two...sometimes you will have to take route 3.
YouTube - aguero thru
in this video (also on legendary), Reyes gets passed Rise on the wing but Rise is still chasing and now he is faced with a double team, the defender ahead of him wants to cut off his run while expecting Rise to cover any attempt to go infeild. Clearly anticipation. A slight movement to the inside before continuing was enough to beat them both.
YouTube - reyes
You also mentioned your players tend to fall over easily, this has to do with your movement. The CPU doesn't fall as often because it uses the right speed and direction at the right time. The better your movement becomes the less you will fall. For instance, I discovered recently that tapping sprint continuosly (if it is set on analog) gives you an enourmous advantage in physical battles and in changing direction when you have possesion. It allows you to make those sharp turns while keeping the ball close enough to your feet all while keeping your acceleartion so you aren't knocked of the ball easily. If you get it right it takes dribbling at defenders to a new level. The speed change is barely noticeable on the tele camera but the effect is clear.
Scutch
Futsal Master
Very nice goal. Would have been better had he put his laces through it, but a superbly controlled volley, nevertheless. Was that just a straight shot, or RT fine tuned?
mfmaxpower
International
- 29 July 2010
Dude, we've already agreed the game has some issues with momentum. We know some animations are not ideal too. But your video simply doens't show enough to make any significant observations, one way or another. Maybe if you can upload that video in slo-mo? Or some more examples?
Trust me, I'm looking for examples in-game that indicate what you're saying is happening, but so far I haven't found any that clearly show - inarguably - that something unrealistic is going on.
I've already said and I'll say again that while I think the dribbling mechanics in FIFA 11 are solid, I have issues with off the ball movement in general, and I think that's a reason why defending is overpowered this year. That could be the answer to your question, and I have several more clips to post that hopefully I can put up by tomorrow that indicate unrealistic off the ball movements, but I haven't seen anything to indicate that the CPU is specifically able to "cheat" in certain situations.
If you want to keep discussing the type of instance you posted above, you're really going to need to post some more vids, preferably some in slo mo.
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Straight shot mate. Though im guessing because its Del Piero it was a controlled volley. if it had been say, gerrard, he would have laced it.
Got me off my seat anyway!
Well, my ps3 crashed one week ago and I lost all I had stored locally, and considering I'm quite bored of the game already I'm not in the mood of wasting hours to show what it's quite clear to me, from a programming point of view.
I mean, all games have "cpu boosting" in one way or another, it's just impossible right now to develop proper AI, it won't happen in the next 10 or 20 years anyway, so I can cope with cpu being able to do some things in a cheap way. But I'm not in the mood of accepting cheap solutions to things or cheap answers like "the defender has a better starting position" when it's quite obvious you're ignoring what happens down at their feet.
In real life, defender should have had to fight with inertia and wouldn't be able to accelerate in one meter, so the oncoming striker would beat him easily. I do this in real life a lot of times and I'm not a quick player (I was 20 years ago).
I'm stubborn, but not that much so I won't keep on the same anymore given you don't care about it, sorry.
