Awareness of our subject, and cheating in video games.

[klashman69]

I’m here to start off a topic discussing in depth and going beyond just video games and asking the question to every as people, how aware are we all of our own knowledge on a subject. My aim here is to get people thinking and opening their minds to question their own views and ideologies, getting people to better understand their own judgement and start to use empathy more, or just as much as they can, to better understand others and subjects they look into.

As I’m here we will look at how this related to the football games we discuss here with PES and FIFA, w will look at how the holistic ideology you display when discussing and playing games, how much you are affected by other people’s views, how much you stay on the bigger picture and the base perspective or get driven off by matters of non relevance. We will use this to better understand both sides of the duality of cheating.

I must start off by apologizing to everyone. At my time here in evo web, I may have provided the community with a few things but my attitude to everyone has been rather aggressive, at times over cynical and lacked empathy. I just look at my last argument with Nerf, i looked at how this was typical of my behaviour, my aggressive attacks to anyone who disagreed with me, getting under the skin of anyone who disagree if I had evidence that i was ‘right’. What i have learned is, it’s not necessarily always about being right. This is a black and white argument because what i forget si people will fundamentally believe what they want to, no matter what you present, it’s about your balanced intention. Do you want a positive outcome from your actions or do you just want to exercise and boost your ego. I’ve basically been a rather highly strung up asshole, which is eye opening considering I’m a highly laid back person in real life.

Now what i mean by Awareness of our subject and how it relates to our opinions on matters is simple. How well do you know for example the game, do you use the controls and ability bestowed to you in their full capacity, do you try to mix up and use as many different techniques as possible during your session? How many techniques do you know in the first place? Are you really an expert? This is something i could sense for years here, but could quite sum it up. I believe my ego got in the way. I’ll go into video game terms now, coming back later to how we can learn from this statement.
I was watching this video a few months ago, procrastinating, watched some of the cheating complains in PES 2012.

Here he shows plenty of conclusive examples of bugs/scripted cheating, the AI with an unfair advantage.
YouTube - PES 2012 Improved AI 3.mp4
/watch?v=OrkxN0GQH6o
/watch?v=sD2JvsWVpyI
/watch?v=rQ9rvsFLYSw
/watch?v=TrtdiwjvSF0

Some examples of bugs:
YouTube - PES 2012 Improved AI 4.mp4
/watch?v=XIvoW8lyFOE
Now it’s clear this game has plenty of room for improvement in pretty much every department, as shown here there are some issues which konami need to look at and these are well documented here, now going back to my point. There two sides to these videos, but the uploaded and gamer only see’s one, his side!

Have you noticed something else in these videos?

Well look at the uploaders point,‘I’m playing the game and I’ve been unfairly penalised because of cheating’. So he questions the game, rightfully,

However, Now flip that point the other way. ‘Cheating has occurred from me playing the game’. Now lets question him playing the game, how is he playing it?

Have you noticed in the instances he’s been cited cheating, where he’s running, how he’s running with the ball. There’s little creativity or invention once he’s on the ball, he didn’t look to try to pass it out wide, look to hold the ball even and look for other options, try a one two. He just expected to just run through everyone it seems. Most of the videos on his channel show him literally just holding down R1 and running towards goal, the way he used R2 to try unbalance the defenders was poor, he gave them time to set on balance and tackle him, so my conclusion was from these vids, Konami have some improving to do one hand, and he’s clearly quite bad and incompetent at the game on the other hand.

Something else which drove this point was when I asked in the FIFA section how many of the people knew the tricks and many people didn’t know how to attempt them. Again gave an insight to all the conditioning people put up around themselves.
In how much he’s lost perspective, this cheating has happened in every football game, just like in the old PES
YouTube - PES 2009 - PS2 - How the CPU cheats all the time.

But this is why I created this topic, i seem this issue where people don’t question their own awareness of the subject. If you look at his comment on the videos he bashed Konami constantly and doesn’t even question for one second how he approached the situation. This a common theme I see with video game reviews and opinions form users. I think in general the issues I see is people wanting and complaining about things not in the game rather than trying to understand what’s in front of them in the first place.

If a player doesn’t respect the game, he won’t ever question his ability or input playing it and any problems occurring will be blamed on the game mechanic, I’m sure I’ve been guilty of this many times and i see this happening everywhere. If a player likes and respects the game, once problems arise, they don’t blame the game, they blame themselves and make every excuse they can to protect the game, again something I’m sure I’ve done many a time. It’s about find a good balance and perspective while playing the game, judging the gameplay and once coming across a bug. In this era many people approach games with this false sense of ego and arrogance i see. This has been my problem with FIFA.

The metaphor for this is how I beat and how depression happens and occurs in the mind, it’s not accepting the situation you are in, not seeing the future for your situation and constantly looking back at disappointment. It’s as if football gamers constantly complain about the current games in this demand for a super, perfect game which doesn’t exist, rather than actually understand what’s infront of them to the fullest extent. Moving back away from games, i see this ideology in many people, always wanting things for fall their way, always wanting things they cant have, always looking on in jealous and not accepting their situation, rather than accepting what they have and looking to use what they have towards a positive outcome.

You are not in the situation you are in by random chance or accident, even if you where the chance you had has passed, it’s not reality, reality is where you are now, not where you could had been in the past. From all the lectures, videos I’ve seen recently since last year especially, and experiences in my life. I’ve come to a conclusion there's no such thing as random chance. Random is only a perception. For something to be random, it needed to be heading somewhere in the first place for it to deviate, thus from a perspective being seen and called random. One you get over this, you start to see how things connect and start to see the holistic process of all our lives.

I have enjoyed both FIFA and PES this year, I still don’t like FIIA but I really enjoy playing it against friends, the game does far more than enough to provide fun when playing vs a human on settings which compliment the games structure. I enjoyed PES when I’ve played in spurts, I’m enjoying it a lot now, and again using the point I’m making here just had a game where i as arsenal played away vs QPR, its perceived to me as if the game was cheating and it was scripted, me hitting the post so much, not being able to score easy chances, cisse then put them 1-0 despite the dominance, now before that I questioned how I was playing, using similar attacks, playing into their hands, i decided to switch Eto’o and van Perise around since RVP just wasant in the game and Eto’o pace was causing them issues so Eto in a deeper wide position would be useful where as RVP as the focal point up front would be better, I wont he game 2-1, RVP scored instantly after QPR did and i scored in the very last second of injury time. Again, another player would have quit the game in a rage.

I’ve been getting comfortable on superstar also using arsenal in manager mode, I finding defending quite easy now on the default game, on -2 just from changing the tackling mentality, I look to use Rosicky, Arteta to do the manual tackling from me, what I do is select either of them, run up ‘behind’ the CPU and tackle him that way, rather than getting constantly skinned face on. I’m not conceding many goals now.

Going back to FIFA, why I enjoy it is because I broken from the box that I placed myself in for FIFA 09, where I wouldn’t play with assisted controls because of the elitist total nonsense saying it’s cheap, again people not using empathy and not flipping their point around and seeing this is a very effective way for the game to run, this is what makes the game so popular, how easy it is to play, how you don’t need to sit there for 10 minutes sorting out the tactics, how you don’t need to worry about your left back will work with your midfielders and will Jenkinson make the same runs as Sagna like I do in PES, everyone is the same, it’s about me playing fantasy like football and using the same old routes, and it’s fun, it gets boring but it’s fun playing against mates, exciting games, closely matched games. This is why FIFA is so popular at my uni, anyone can play it, PES is difficult and people find it harder to get into, even the default arcade settings.

The best way to understand not just football games but anything in life is to explore the subject without any conditioning and barriers as much as you can have time to do. Set aside what you have been told, experiment, try to master all aspects of the game or test all aspects out to get a good awareness of what you are looking at. Don’t jump too quickly to conclusions if something is wrong, maybe it’s something you’re doing.

The conclusion I’ve come to scripting is it’s a two way thing, like everything in reality. Scripting is a predetermined event, and scripting will occur more to people who do the same things over and over again. Like Einstien said, even though it’s not wisdom but can be cleverly placed in on certain situations. The definition of insanity; doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Now you don’t have to use this for your video games, this is more important to implement this mentality into life, don’t keep beating yourself up with things which didn’t happen, no matter how near you got to, life is about making mistakes and learning from them, not beating yourself up because you made one, if mistakes didn’t happen, there would be no life in the first place, the world won’t pander towards your ignorance.

As you can see it’s not necessarily about playing video games, or about my opinion which ones better, it’s about what you think best suits you as a person. If you don’t like PES or FIFA, don’t play it, do something else, these so much out there in life to encounter, why are video games so import that they have to be good, you should be asking yourself why you closed your mind and reality into such a small box which revolves around video games, sitting there being cynical talking about how good a game should be isn’t helping your, me or anyone, companies do need our feedback to improve the game, but don’t clutch at straws hoping for the next game to be something perfect I say.

Any thoughts overs have? I like opening people’s minds and getting them to become a better version of who they are.

FOr anyone whos interested I'm going to prodcut tactics for all the EURO 2012, and i insist! Every PES patch uses them! I dam well do

 

[ccshopland]

A fantastic post and very insightful. You hit many problems on the head, flush on.

For me, I can only really analyse my 'stock' mode and that is Superstar level, PES, 20 mins, zero assistance, with Liverpool.

The first thing I want to say is that PES this year has required a LOT of learning, and the concentration required to nullify the CPU is high, each and every game. Another point to make, prior to 1.06, is that I DO believe there are scripted events which heavily favour the CPU in certain situations. The game was far too rewarding of teams who just threw strikers everywhere and the game became a counter mish-mash whereby the CPU super dribbling would eventually pay off. With 1.06, I feel all my little grievances have been lowered dramatically.

So with these things covered let's move on to something deeper.

I have ALWAYS had an open mind to football games, PES in particular. This year, when I was going through a very hard time of it on Superstar, I could have easily thrown the toys out of the pram and joined in with the masses that claimed the game broke, shit, or just downright cheaty all the time. But I persevered. There were players out there saying that they had got comfortable with Superstar, not winning every game, but just comfortable in the fact that they had uncovered most of the elements required to push the CPU. So I had two options really. Quit the game out of frustration, or find out if there was a way for me to enjoy the game by taking on the information from others who had gotten good at the game. I chose the latter.

I learned for example, that player positioning and playing to your formation was imperative. I leaned that sometimes when being countered you have to jockey and fall back a long way, to wait for team mate support around you. I learned to counter the CPU overload and counter with them parking the bus also, that I had to change my playing style and draw them out, possibly with a deeper defensive line myself and perhaps more midfielders. I learnt that protecting the wings is vital in this game, and now with PES 1.06 the missile cross is dumbed down, the aerial game is a joy again. I learnt that my 'best XI' isn't the 'best results' XI. I learnt about R2. I learnt to foul more and break the play up, and to take yellow cards and red cards. I learnt to switch play a lot, and that going forwards wasn't always the best solution. I learnt how to mix my game up, further learning that possession means nothing. 65% possession and losing isn't the answer. 55% possession and hitting long balls, short balls and varying your play IS the solution. I learnt that if the CPU was holding me out, to change my possession football philosophy and to give the ball to the CPU to draw them out themselves, then counter myself.

I could go on. I hope though I have just briefly outlined ALL the mechanics needed to give you the best chance of winning games on 2012. I say this because I too fell into the trap, probably like many, of playing a quite linear game of football, then getting frustrated/annoyed/angry/blaming scripts when my game kept getting repelled by the CPU. I you keep doing something over and over again and it's not working, then you simply HAVE to change your philosophy.

Also I had a new appreciation of the 'on the fly' tactics at this time, varying my presets multiple times during the game, to find that killer combination.

Now, I have a whole new appreciation of PES. This new patch has certainly made it the best game of computer football I have ever played. It simply is now unrivalled in my eyes. Sure there's lots of little tech issues that need to be sorted I'm not blind to that.

Like you though Klash, I have recently learned to just chill on these boards. My opinion is only derived from my experiences with the game, others are in the same boat. I cannot impinge my philosophies/style of play onto anyone, they play the game in their way as they see fit. They then form an opinion (good/bad) on whether the game is enjoyable/scripted/a crock of shit etc etc. But at the end of the day it is their preference and their opinion which is just as valid as mine. The fact that we may be approaching the game from different angles, I have concluded, is neither here nor there. Perhaps what they feel or want from a football title is far away from what I want. Perhaps the way they want to play the game is totally different to mine. Perhaps the outcomes that they are after is totally different to mine. It doesn't matter to me. Not any more. Each person can only give an account of the the game from their eyes and experiences.

For me, the road to success this year has been long arduous, and ultimately so, so rewarding. Just when I think I have 'mastered' the game, I overlook something tactically and I get exploited (the gem recently being leaving Coates out against aerial teams backfires really badly).

With 1.06, lots of the really blatant cheating has been eradicated. I'm thinking the lofted wing through ball, cross, header, goal from the CPU, which in fairness, mostly you could no hardly anything about. The game has really opened up, again with the defensive lines being somewhat more realistic.

But coming back to my main point, it's what makes these forums great I guess, is that it's all about opinion. And people should be respected whether they give this game 10/10 or 1/10!

 

[Lami]

I actually agree with many things you've said there klash. I've been having that mentality for quite a while now and it's helped me a lot. Keep an open mind, stay optimistic, life isn't just about the past or the now, because it only goes forth. What has happened is dead and gone. Keep your head up and always look forth. Don't bang on too much on your past and let it get to you and sulk, then turn into a counter-productive zombie. Look at the mirror, you're still here, and you're here to stay for quite a while, so you better do something about it because time only ticks forward.

Games, it's as simple as this, play whatever suits you. That is what's important. I might play something that some consider so childish but I enjoy quite a lot, simply because I cannot play complex games for so long, and need to wind down and relax.

Football games, PES is my game of choice because of it's philosophy, even if it's still bug ridden. Fifa is a good game, just not my cup of tea, yet.

Anyway, that was a good read imo, and I'm glad you're that person now, and hope you stay that way

And I'm sorry for going off-topic, but had to leave a comment.

 

[Thespeedster84]

Hi Klash..

I agree more in that 'it is a predetermined input combined with some parameters to result in various predetermined output' rather than it is a cpu cheating..

So what Konami must work hard at is to create as many as possible both input and output as well as parameters in the same time.. Testing them hard.. with many playing time, from different approach, different mode, teams, level of diffculty etc.. Just to see that the result is what intended and to eradicate the possible deviation of the output..

For example PES 2012' active ai which means player tries to fill empty spaces smartly and take those example from videos which a player bump to his team mate on the ball and one that blocked his team mate shoot.. To me it is just unwanted output of the systems.. Sometimes i just laugh at them if not frequently happen.. But at the same time it'd be better to point it out to Konami in order to address awareness of the player to his team mate position, direction of running, etc..

Now have you commented on animation improvement for PES 2013 klash ? I have to admit that quite many nice thing introduced in 2012 compared to 2011. But however as usual many thing can be improved for next version so i just rant about it..

-------------------

Note that i sometimes put my player outside cpu box to get that kind of foul ... Just in actual match.. player is so sensitive outside enemy's box.. This is how i see Konami still keeps this detail inside the game, FIFA does not have this at least as long as my playing time with it. However, again and again, Konami must more carefully keep balancing the situation with better collision system, better referee.. oh and variety of suitable animation

PES 2013 : Animation and less cpu super dribbling FTW

 

[gerd]

Is it necessary to be a fantastic player to have an opinion about the game?
I will even go further: i'm pants at video games. In a person to person match 99,99% of the people on Evo-Web will easily beat me.
Still i have a very clear opinion on PES2012 (it sucks big time). Does the fact that i'm a bad player makes this opinion less valuable? I don't think so.

When i play a video game against the CPU, i don't mind loosing but it has to be a defeat because i did things wrong and not because there are too many random factors.

In PES2012 there are too many random factors (the shooting for example).

In PES 3,4, 5, 6 and also 2011 i could play the game on the highest setting and still win most games. In PES2012 i regularly loose matches when playing with my daughter on the second lowest setting. That is not because my daughter is even worse than i am, that is because this is a bad, broken game that does not reward minimal skill. Good games should reward even minimal skill. It is well possible that PES2012 only rewards maximum skill (i doubt it, but i you guys say so...), but then it is a bad game...games should not be for the happy few.

Oh and one advice of an old man: don't take games so serious...they are only games you know.

 

[Lami]

Oh and one advice of an old man: don't take games so serious...they are only games you know.

This I agree with 100%.

 

[Sabatasso]

" ‘Cheating has occurred from me playing the game’. Now lets question him playing the game, how is he playing it? "

Well, running straight through openings to create chances and having them taken away with unfair means is poor game design, not poor gaming on the players part.

Maybe the game would be "too easy" if you could just take advantage of all holes like that, but a proper fix would be to make the AI leave less wide open holes in the defense. Otherwise it's just a "trap" which isn't very much in thread with real life football.

The AI cheats because you play the game wrong, or not "advanced" enough is not a good conclusion.

 

[Nobleknight]

Simply one of the best articles

 

[Chimps-with-quiffs]

I have never been so frustrated with a game as I have with this years.

No matter how many times I try the master league and then tell myself never to touch it again, I keep going back and starting a season and after 5 or so games turning it off.

The frustation comes from how good I know this game can be in exhibition mode. But when you play either the master league or the cup you see three things that ruin the game.

The first is that some stadiums and times of day play much different to others.Some play at the perfect pace and smoothness and fluidity, others play faster and others play clunky and un-responsive. As someone who has spent months trying to create the pefect game, this is a infurtiating as you cannot take into account the game changing each time.

The second thing is that for some reason, the master league plays different to the exhibition mode. It's less responsive, your own players are automatically worse at a lot of things.

The third thing and this is not something I have mentioned before is cheating. It wouldn't be big thing for me if the game played as well in the master league. In previous years I haven't noticed it, but every time I play the master league I see it. In the exhibition mode I seem to be able to play free football with goals worked well by both teams. If i work an opening, I know how to shoot well enough to score some brilliant goals and its the same with the opposition. In the master league I could pass around the whole team to a player free in the box who most times will hit a poor shot. The opposition though seem massively more clinical in front of goal.

 

[klashman69]

" ‘Cheating has occurred from me playing the game’. Now lets question him playing the game, how is he playing it? "

Well, running straight through openings to create chances and having them taken away with unfair means is poor game design, not poor gaming on the players part.

Maybe the game would be "too easy" if you could just take advantage of all holes like that, but a proper fix would be to make the AI leave less wide open holes in the defense. Otherwise it's just a "trap" which isn't very much in thread with real life football.

This is something I left out of the OP which should have been mentioned. Awareness of a subject. First we have to gain base perspective of the subject and how it works, we need to understand why things happen the way they do.

Let's go back to basics.

The 'Cheating' on PES is a perception. From what I’ve seen there is no 'fundamental' cheating in the method off the CPU literally disabling your controller, leaving your players like statues and letting their team win. There is no fixed matches in that the CPU will always win, no matter how many times you play, this is the same with FIFA, there is no scripting along the lines of this programming. The worst thing I’ve seen is at times you will not have penalties given.

How the cheating is perceived and what usually happens is simply the game is unbalanced in certain area's unbalanced as such the computer is too effective and too clinical in certain situations which present similar scripted outcomes. People have complained of the CPU super dribbling, this is a perfect example, the CPU effectiveness and timing in regards to beating a player in relation to how you time pressing the tackle button, it's too effective. Thats how the cheating works in PES 2012!

Also the unbalances where we see especially on -1, where the CPU depending on form and momentum will be given too much of a stats boost which allows them to play like gods, this is compounded when you play into their hands, pressing buttons with the timing which easily allows them to get past, moving players out of position allowing them to play through you.

The biggest issue i see with the CPU in relation to the cheating is for the passing, anyone noticed how perfect the CPU are at times with their passing, this is why i only play on 0 passing assistance vs the CPU, it's too unbalanced me using 0, they can pass around with little room for error while I have to focus on my passes :| . Again, when you start reducing the CPU passing options, if you start disrupting their play, which is possible, very possible and destroy their rhythm, their opportunity for 'cheap goals' are either reduced or stopped.

Now lets flip that around for defending, and your point here:

Well, running straight through openings to create chances and having them taken away with unfair means is poor game design, not poor gaming on the players part.

This fits into exactly why I created this there here, people wanting the world to pander to their ignorance premise. You say running through a straight opening as if it's black and white, well i think you need to be aware of the situation and how quickly it changes in football.

This video here demonstrates my point perfectly:
YouTube - PES 2012 New Improved AI 2.mp4

At 0:02, now, what this guy isn't seeing is that he has i think Anelka, or a striker there free and ready to receive a through ball from the created player, this a perfect opportunity for him to slot the ball through for a teammate, what does do?

Keep holding down R1, one the situation changes and the CPU defender does really poorly and allows him through.

move the situation on to 0:04 or 0:15, now he's beaten the player, he's through on goal, now for him to stay ahead and break through from the chasing pack, he would need to tap the R1 button to knock the ball further head or even simply hold R1 and R2 if he was to run at a slight angle. But again what does he do? Keep holding R1. his teammate catches up and stupidly gets in the way, then again, he only caught up because he's holding R1, so you travel slower having to control a ball compared to a player off the ball.

I can do this critical analysis of his play for almost every single of of his videos.

Now again looking at both sides, he player running in the way is stupid and something konami should look at, again looking at the other side, this just a video game, only PS3 tech, we should expect stupidness from the Ai at times, games are still just programs responding to commands but most importantly, look at your own incompetence, and see what you can do to improve. It’s not hard, I’m not asking him to play like a god, just not be such a ball hog to be exact.

It's very, very easy to sit there point fingers at everyone for your situation. But what a responsible person does is look at his own faults and looks to better them.

Maybe the game would be "too easy" if you could just take advantage of all holes like that, but a proper fix would be to make the AI leave less wide open holes in the defense. Otherwise it's just a "trap" which isn't very much in thread with real life football.

I think you may need to look at the bigger perspective again. your point there means that in football you will never see big holes in defences, they will alwas stay like robots, water tight :|

The AI cheats because you play the game wrong, or not "advanced" enough is not a good conclusion.

Now hopefully you can better understand what 'cheating is' it's not the AI stopping you unfairly when it feels like it, it's certian apsects of the game in certian situations being unblanced which favor the AI too much which can be percieved as cheating, we also need to be conscious of instances where the game favours our team too much and makes it easy.

Let's move away from looking at things with a black and white absolute perspective. not adapting to the situation and questioning both your play and the CPU ina balanced manner.

My aimm here is to get people aware of their own mistakes and how to learn fromt hem and remain on persepctive, it's not about me getting people to like PES or FIFA, people will make their own decisions.

Is it necessary to be a fantastic player to have an opinion about the game?
I will even go further: i'm pants at video games. In a person to person match 99,99% of the people on Evo-Web will easily beat me.

Nope, i just feel peoples opinions and views should adapt to their understanding of the game. If you feel that the game isn't well balanced for people who aren't great at the game, fair enough, good point and something konami should look into, however i think that it's better not to make sweeping black and white statements for everyone regading just your opinion. Different epople will have different perspectives.

Also, please take into account and think about what i said about randomness, when you percieve something as random and don't understand whats happening, when you dislike it, your brain shuts off and usually compiles a absolutle black and white opinion, nothing is random. Everything happens for a reason, random is a perception.

 

[klashman69]

Thanks for replies ccshopland, Lami and the speeder, no, we are in may so i'm not too fucked whats happening with PES 2013, i'll cross that bridge when it comes, i'm happy with what i have now, i not waiting and hoping on PES 2013 to satisfy my needs, infact i'm a little annoyed they have announced it so early.

 

[jammiedodger]

Is it necessary to be a fantastic player to have an opinion about the game?
I will even go further: i'm pants at video games. In a person to person match 99,99% of the people on Evo-Web will easily beat me.
Still i have a very clear opinion on PES2012 (it sucks big time). Does the fact that i'm a bad player makes this opinion less valuable? I don't think so.

When i play a video game against the CPU, i don't mind loosing but it has to be a defeat because i did things wrong and not because there are too many random factors.

In PES2012 there are too many random factors (the shooting for example).

In PES 3,4, 5, 6 and also 2011 i could play the game on the highest setting and still win most games. In PES2012 i regularly loose matches when playing with my daughter on the second lowest setting. That is not because my daughter is even worse than i am, that is because this is a bad, broken game that does not reward minimal skill. Good games should reward even minimal skill. It is well possible that PES2012 only rewards maximum skill (i doubt it, but i you guys say so...), but then it is a bad game...games should not be for the happy few.

Oh and one advice of an old man: don't take games so serious...they are only games you know.

You say winning doesn't bother you but it obviously does by your comments. If your winning at something you will enjoy the games more. No one likes losing and i lose a fair share myself and some losses i do believe i shouldn't have lost. But isn't that the way football is anyway. You aren't going to score everytime you're one on one with the keeper not even when you have an open goalmouth. I can honestly say when my player is in the correct body position when shooting the shots go where i want them to. If I'm not the direction will vary as it should.

But i can honestly say at least 75-80 percent of the time when I've had the possession and the most chances in a game i have won them games and this is not down to bug goals or random game issues.

If you have minimal skill i suggest you play offline on a low skill level. Konami are not going to make a game too simplistic as people would not bother buying it as there would be no challenge in the game.

 

[ccshopland]

Food for thought guys.

Played Man Utd earlier today. I had 60% possession, but they were by far the more dominant team and virtually pinned me in my own half for the entire first half (Superstar level, zero assists) and up to the 70th minute of the second half. Before I scored my first goal, they had been all over me, and hit the bar and the post. I then, completely against the run of play scored my first. Around 10 minutes game time they got their deserved goal. Then in the 85th minute, with my second decent chance of the game I scored the winner.

Match facts - Possession 60-40 to me. Shots (On Target) 5(2)-14(9), to Man Utd.

So, to recap, I spent virtually the whole game in my own half, had 2 shots on target from 5, they had 14 shots with 9 on target and two off the goal frame - and I scored a 85th minute winner!

That's football. If I cry cheating any time soon, I'll poke myself in the eyes....promise!

 

[Sabatasso]

very, very long post

The computer teleports through your players on occasion, you can't say that is "unbalanced in favor of AI", it is blatant cheating.

If the AI leaves a wide gap that I try to take advantage of, and Aaron Lennon (95TS) on red form constantly gets not only caught up, but thoroughly beaten in sprint duels by players of 75 TS, then you can't say it's because it is a situation that favors the AI, it's a god damn script that magically enhances AI players to 95+ in everything WHEN THEY NEED TO!

Yair and jenkey has removed most of these scrips in their PES hacks, and to be frank, the game is difficult enough when you face good teams. Nobody in their right mind thinks it is OK to struggle as Barcelona vs Genk in the CL later stages. Konami seems to think this is a great idea, however.

Finally, the answer to why the game acts as it does is simply because the game is coded to preserve extreme intensity and close games across the board. Whenever you enter competition mode, the arcade factor goes through the roof and the AI says "GAME ON!".
You don't really need to over-analyze it further, FIFA is exactly the same. Both games sucks in that manner, and the real loser is the mature gamer who wants a game that is as realistic as possible. It would not be hard to implement an option to remove the arcade factor, and both sides of the fence would be extremely satisfied.

You may say I over-simplify, but I do so on purpose.

 

[klashman69]

The computer teleports through your players on occasion, you can't say that is "unbalanced in favor of AI", it is blatant cheating.

If the AI leaves a wide gap that I try to take advantage of, and Aaron Lennon (95TS) on red form constantly gets not only caught up, but thoroughly beaten in sprint duels by players of 75 TS, then you can't say it's because it is a situation that favors the AI, it's a god damn script that magically enhances AI players to 95+ in everything WHEN THEY NEED TO!

Yair and jenkey has removed most of these scrips in their PES hacks, and to be frank, the game is difficult enough when you face good teams. Nobody in their right mind thinks it is OK to struggle as Barcelona vs Genk in the CL later stages. Konami seems to think this is a great idea, however.

Finally, the answer to why the game acts as it does is simply because the game is coded to preserve extreme intensity and close games across the board. Whenever you enter competition mode, the arcade factor goes through the roof and the AI says "GAME ON!".
You don't really need to over-analyze it further, FIFA is exactly the same. Both games sucks in that manner, and the real loser is the mature gamer who wants a game that is as realistic as possible. It would not be hard to implement an option to remove the arcade factor, and both sides of the fence would be extremely satisfied.

You may say I over-simplify, but I do so on purpose.

I tend not to use the gameplay edits of yair, as when i have used them they tend to be too easy and matches become too similar. You know what to expect which is the problem. His mentallity is exactly the thing i specify here, i saw a day after the demo 2 was released he uploaded a gameplay patch, i mean how much did he really find out about the game? Did he act hastily on too many things?

Whats he's going is changing the core gameplay scripts, i seen his patches have pretty much removed the CPU abillity to tke you on altoghether, he's also changing the game so all teams will behave the same way. I love PES becuase teams play differently,

I think it's good to look at what sort of simulation you want, how much realsim do you want and expect? I said before do you want a game when you play vs Stoke, they will play ugly and hoof long balls at you, do you want a game when if your a strong team and ply vs a weak team, they will put 11 behind the ball or do you want to simply beatt hem with ease? How do you want to defend? Do you want teams to play in a similar way all the time, do you want every team to play slow buildup? Do you want players to exibit horrible first touches? do you want everyone to have a prestine first touch. Maybe you need to look at confirming what your ideal of realsim is.

Haven't seen players teleport past me at all in a way thats is totally unnatural, as if it's star trek . I think i see it's might be hard for us to understand eachover because you not trying to understrand where i'm coming from, it's as if you have your opinion and thats it, no matter what i say :|, you say its blatant cheating, i say it's the CPU being too precise and having too much abillity to get round you? Surely you can see this is the same thing. Again vaildating my topic really, to debate in a forum it thinks its good to come with a open mind, rather than come in looking to force your opinions on others, misunderstanding others is where giant arguments spawn from. take what others say and see if it might help your but best, take what others say nad think about how it relates to where you are.

With the Lennon being caught up thing, I have Walcott for my arsenal team and when he's away nobody catches him, same with Eto'o. You talk of you playing as barca and having a even match vs Genk, i seen this happen when i was 3-0 up and dominting vs Wolves, it ended 3-2 with two goals from them in the last minutes. i mean i'd say it's me needing to keep possesion better and sure the match out.

 

[Evil Heat]

Just because you find the video posters game play aesthetically unpleasant doesn't mean he's playing the game wrongly.

It's clear he favours a direct style of play. In the first he runs into the box and passes the ball just in front of the goalkeeper for his team mate to tap in. But inexplicably his team mate backs away from the ball as if there's a force field around it. That's undeniable and something you haven't addressed, instead attacking him for not "playing the right way". But what's the right way? He's beaten the CPU defence legitimately with his own style of play, but instead of being rewarded he's been cheated out of a goal.

In the second video he again runs into the box looking to pass the ball in front of goal for a team mate to score. Not very pleasant to watch granted, but his own style of play. He sees he's blocked by defenders so he checks his run looking for another angle, but inexplicably his team mate blunders into him breaking the move down.It's these kinds of things that drive people mad about this game.

Incidentally I've had the "teleport" thing happen to me as well recently. My defender was covering an attacker who was running in on goal. But miracles of miracles he went right through him like a ghost to run in and score. I saved the replay but I'm not sure how to post it on here.

 

[Thespeedster84]

For me the teleport through a player just shows level of current collision detection system of player animation model in PES 2012.. It is better than 2011 and i don't see why it is not going further in 2013.

One of the active ai stuff is that team mate making spaces for us with his run. Sure, it works many times for me and result in more entertaining attack play compared to PES 2011.

However, of course the system still leaves area to be improved. For example, in a counter attack.. I am controlling my CM to dribble to the winger side.. then my RM/LM or LB/RB just go the same direction of mine from my back. You know the result, blunder run . However, i might have just slow dribble in the midfield, let team mate attract opponent's RB/LB so that i can go there to distract their RB/LB from chasing them.. when they start to stop and chase for me.. then i can try to send the ball to my team mate.

Despite not spesific, by the sound of it, at least Konami is taking the active ai further :

ProActive AI: ProActive AI unites the control and realism, with players that will respond and find space as befits those at the top of their game:

- Balance of Play: The development team has worked closely with the PES fan base to eradicate any illogical elements to the way players move and run in PES 2013, with the 'ProActive AI' system enhancing the speed and balance resulting in a more realistic game experience.

See what i bold, they actually admit there are still illogical elements.. Would love to see what they bring later this year

 

[Sabatasso]

Whats he's going is changing the core gameplay scripts, i seen his patches have pretty much removed the CPU abillity to tke you on altoghether, he's also changing the game so all teams will behave the same way. I love PES becuase teams play differently,

In the process of tuning the patches, there have been some really bad ones, yes. But you're clearly jumping into hasty conclusions as well, as you're not describing anything that looks and feels like Yair or Jenkey's patches.

Practice what you preach.

Haven't seen players teleport past me at all in a way thats is totally unnatural, as if it's star trek .

Then you haven't payed attention on the replays.

I think i see it's might be hard for us to understand eachover because you not trying to understrand where i'm coming from, it's as if you have your opinion and thats it, no matter what i say :|, you say its blatant cheating, i say it's the CPU being too precise and having too much abillity to get round you? Surely you can see this is the same thing. Again vaildating my topic really, to debate in a forum it thinks its good to come with a open mind, rather than come in looking to force your opinions on others, misunderstanding others is where giant arguments spawn from. take what others say and see if it might help your but best, take what others say nad think about how it relates to where you are.

I'm not invalidating your opinion at all, because you're partially right in some areas. I am just saying that you miss some obvious points that are blatant cheats. You, however seem to refuse their existence. So again, you're doing the same thing you're accusing me of, having already made up your mind.

With the Lennon being caught up thing, I have Walcott for my arsenal team and when he's away nobody catches him, same with Eto'o. You talk of you playing as barca and having a even match vs Genk, i seen this happen when i was 3-0 up and dominting vs Wolves, it ended 3-2 with two goals from them in the last minutes. i mean i'd say it's me needing to keep possesion better and sure the match out.

The AI usually turn on its "cheat mode" once you perform better than it expected. Making sure you get competition, which is a good thing in theory. I don't know where this "limit" is, but I've managed to keep the default game AI acting somewhat "normal" for over half a ML season by losing against big clubs on purpose, and sticking to narrow 1 goal wins against equal and weaker opposition. At one point I could not resist thoroughly beating Arsenal 1-6 away, and the AI went crazy. The next game Wigan pressured me non stop for 90+ minutes, and played better than any team I'd met yet. Despite my team being topped with in-form (red arrow) players. It went on from there, Norwich played like Barcelona defensively for 90+ minutes and so on. The interesting part is that up until the Arsenal game, Man City and Man United where a walk in the park. I lost to both those teams, but I did so on purpose, letting them win 1-0 but I maintained near 85% possession against both of them, and I didn't let them score until 80th or so minute. So it proves that the AI is "directing" the game too much. The game wants you to have a certain experience, and it will force it upon you with might if need be.

I am a fantastic PES player, if I may say so myself, after many years of playing this game I am like a wizard with the controller. So, naturally I am able to win more than my "fair share" in ML with a fairly weak team. The AI does not like that, and once it has "enough" of your dominance, it changes demeanor, and it's not a pretty sight. The AI gains a dead on accuracy which was not there before, it also seems to ignore player skill limitations (Lennon vs Average Joe scenario), use an extreme collective team pressure on you, and impose "daze" on your players, making it hard to string three passes together.

The later gameplay hacks has reduced this AI behavior, making them visibly confused at times, using support passes and ,depending on team strength, creating fantastic and believable offensive football. The kinds of attacks where you don't mind conceding because you know the AI outplayed you thoroughly and "fairly". And I also have a much harder time playing these versions than vanilla Konami versions, because the Konami AI is stupid and "mechanic", and can only score when using "AI exclusive" advantages. The hacked files, especially nesa24's "purefootball" makes the AI so varied that you become literally bedazzled while playing. Ofcourse there are some bugs that comes with the hacks, but nothing major at this point.

Anyway, I do see "your point", but I _know_ that you're turning the blind eye at some key points (blatant cheats), however I don't think you do it intentionally. If you treat the game engine like its a real football match, the game will feel more authentic and be "better", and the same applies for the AI hacked files. Half the game has to go on inside your own head, keep possession, play a little dally at the back and don't rush forward every time you get the ball.

In short, if you're doing well the game will turn into a "frantic" and in my opinion unpleasant experience. With hacks, you can maintain the relaxed and fun aspect of the game, and if you "play it right" (as you say) the game will be at least as challenging, and in many cases more challenging with the hacks.

I'm using nesa's PureFootball for 1.03 and use a "light" global edit where Speed merchant is removed, Agility (EP) is capped at 90 and Response is between 70 and 85 for outfield players. The global edit does wonders for the Konami version as well, making it more "real" and increasing the difficulty. But, there are side effects...

 

[klashman69]

Just because you find the video posters game play aesthetically unpleasant doesn't mean he's playing the game wrongly.

It's clear he favours a direct style of play

I highly disagree. If everyone played like this guy on higher levels such as professional, top player etc.. then we might as well just close this forum down, lets face it. It's the most basic way to play the game and something a person who knows absolutely nothing about football at all can do. He's literally just holding R1, it's like me playing a basektball game or a hockey game and me just holding sprint and expect to beat everyone with ease and score.

I'm not saying the bugs are acceptable as i will talk about below but however, he's playing poorly, not he favors this style of play, i don't think he showed he's capable of doing anything else.

This guy seems as if he dosen't know there's other sprint functions such as tapping R1, or R1+R2,

If he's winning games and successful on higher levels with that, again I'll just stop playing PES and I'm sure many will here because it will show that the game has little or no depth. Then again i could be wrong he's playing on regular or Amateur?

In the first he runs into the box and passes the ball just in front of the goalkeeper for his team mate to tap in. But inexplicably his team mate backs away from the ball as if there's a force field around it. That's undeniable and something you haven't addressed,

I did, i sad this is something Konami needs to look at these bugs and perceived cheats are one side of the two sided point, that's what i meant, you group all of the programing faults and unbalances to one side.

I didn't talk in depth about the bug, didn't need to the video says it all. Talking in depth and jumping around the room about it dosen't get us anywhere, the video shows the problem, things like this are talked about all the time.

instead attacking him for not "playing the right way". But what's the right way? He's beaten the CPU defence legitimately with his own style of play, but instead of being rewarded he's been cheated out of a goal.

From what i could see he only got round the player because of a bug. I mean konami need to look at how the defender just also seemed to lag himself out of the way. very strange. Maybe it was on regular? Or a low level.

Anyway, I'm not denying and never denied the guy wasn't being cheated, you can see i took the time to post the relevant bugs and cheats in the post, to demonstrate my point, i meant i can see many have spoken at length about the cheats, they highly abundant, me ranting about them to get +1 isn't going to get us anywhere considering it's been said to death before. The valid point has been made 1000 times over, I'm presenting a new argument to help people open their minds more.

In the second video he again runs into the box looking to pass the ball in front of goal for a team mate to score. Not very pleasant to watch granted, but his own style of play. He sees he's blocked by defenders so he checks his run looking for another angle, but inexplicably his team mate blunders into him breaking the move down.It's these kinds of things that drive people mad about this game.

Again, never said that's ok by Konami's standard, the cheating is too much, it's been a ingrained issue in PES since it's conception ad this version shows more of it than others, the most since PES6.

 

[klashman69]

In the process of tuning the patches, there have been some really bad ones, yes. But you're clearly jumping into hasty conclusions as well, as you're not describing anything that looks and feels like Yair or Jenkey's patches.

Practice what you preach.

Sorry i haven't tired them all, but the ones i tired i didn't enjoy the hacks. The only yair patch i liked was the PES 2011 AFTER i significantly reduced the gamespeed using kitserver to 0.95 or something, was quite good. I don't use the ktserver speed hack as it ruins the game in 2012.

Then you haven't payed attention on the replays.

There's bad ball collision detection, at times bad body collision detection, then again i've seen it varies a lot depending on what speed you play, maybe the teleporting happens more on a certain speed than it does on others, which shows Konami have issues balancing the game correctly.

-1 is by far the worst and most unbalanced for me, just me though, others it maybe different.

I'm not invalidating your opinion at all, because you're partially right in some areas. I am just saying that you miss some obvious points that are blatant cheats. You, however seem to refuse their existence. So again, you're doing the same thing you're accusing me of, having already made up your mind.

What i don't understand if you agree with some areas why didn't you specify this in your first post? Why didn't you say you agreed with some areas but disagreed with others?

Why drop it in now? I don't like his vibe here, you seemed quite intent to focus only on the cheating i your first two posts, but now you say you actually agreed with my opening post. Look at TheSpeeders post, why didn't you present something lie that, something that was balanced, he said he agreed and disagreed with my post. I don;t think your being totally honest here, i think your throwing this in because it suits the situation.

You gave of a vibe in that you thought my point about being aware of the situation was irrelevant and Konami's faults where the only issue.

The AI usually turn on its "cheat mode" once you perform better than it expected. Making sure you get competition, which is a good thing in theory. I don't know where this "limit" is, but I've managed to keep the default game AI acting somewhat "normal" for over half a ML season by losing against big clubs on purpose, and sticking to narrow 1 goal wins against equal and weaker opposition. At one point I could not resist thoroughly beating Arsenal 1-6 away, and the AI went crazy. The next game Wigan pressured me non stop for 90+ minutes, and played better than any team I'd met yet. Despite my team being topped with in-form (red arrow) players. It went on from there, Norwich played like Barcelona defensively for 90+ minutes and so on.

Well in the game prior to QPR like i said in the first post i destroyed Fenebache in the Champions League 4-0. QPR had everything go right for them, but i still got the victory, i could see the game going against be, so i decided to change my team around a bit, and it helped me in the end. I talked about this before in a Wolfsburg manager mode, Fulham in the Europa League dominated the first 10 minutes, i then said, hey, something is wrong here, changed my team around a bit and won 3-1 in the end.

Maybe their tactics countered yours, and you played too much into their hands? I know that the CPU do go into superman mode at times, normally with tam doing well in the league, i don't think there are matches so that you just cannot win regardless.

Thing is your point is still a valid one for Koanmi who i think should be seriously working on sliders for future titles. People what their own definition of realism or their own defined version of football, i think the option to tone down certain gameplay aspects and their effectiveness, such as computer taking on players, how much they pass the ball around passing accuracy, key aspects of the game should be able to be changed, so they can try to please everyone

The interesting part is that up until the Arsenal game, Man City and Man United where a walk in the park. I lost to both those teams, but I did so on purpose, letting them win 1-0 but I maintained near 85% possession against both of them, and I didn't let them score until 80th or so minute. So it proves that the AI is "directing" the game too much. The game wants you to have a certain experience, and it will force it upon you with might if need be.

I am a fantastic PES player,if I may say so myself, after many years of playing this game I am like a wizard with the controller. So, naturally I am able to win more than my "fair share" in ML with a fairly weak team. The AI does not like that, and once it has "enough" of your dominance, it changes demeanor, and it's not a pretty sight. The AI gains a dead on accuracy which was not there before, it also seems to ignore player skill limitations (Lennon vs Average Joe scenario), use an extreme collective team pressure on you, and impose "daze" on your players, making it hard to string three passes together.

Well anyone can say that, i mean there is no point in saying that really, not just being a wizard at PES means absolute nothing, it's just a video game, but i mean how can anyone tell if your good? Anyone can big themselves up on the net, it's just words. Best to provide some videos I'd say.

The later gameplay hacks has reduced this AI behavior, making them visibly confused at times, using support passes and ,depending on team strength, creating fantastic and believable offensive football. The kinds of attacks where you don't mind conceding because you know the AI outplayed you thoroughly and "fairly". And I also have a much harder time playing these versions than vanilla Konami versions, because the Konami AI is stupid and "mechanic", and can only score when using "AI exclusive" advantages. The hacked files, especially nesa24's "purefootball" makes the AI so varied that you become literally bedazzled while playing. Ofcourse there are some bugs that comes with the hacks, but nothing major at this point.

I haven't played Nesa's file and i don't necessarily want to if I'm perfectly honest, after watching a video of a demonstration of the game i was put off, the CPU where just passing it about for the sake of passing it about, they didn't take you on at all, yes it stops the super dribbling but you can just change teams tactics to make the pass it more, then again see players tend like the CPU to pass it about so i can see why it was made . Didn't seem really as if the CPU where hard to break down either, there where many instances where passes where on but he didn't look to play them. I could see the hack would make every CPU team pass the ball around in the same way.

I'm using nesa's PureFootball for 1.03 and use a "light" global edit where Speed merchant is removed, Agility (EP) is capped at 90 and Response is between 70 and 85 for outfield players. The global edit does wonders for the Konami version as well, making it more "real" and increasing the difficulty. But, there are side effects...

Doesn't sound like that's for me, if anything it seems players would feel very generic, but I'm not sure many play the game like i do.

I play on -2 pretty much all the time, i recently downloaded the QPES patch, it starts off on +2, played on that speed for a bit, was way too easy, fun, very fun and fast but easy, I'd rather do that playing with friends played on 0 or a bit, again nice, fluid but simple, something for online. in the same game put it on -2 and the PES i enjoy was back, I'll upload a short video on why i love -2, it's about the technique, the lack of it you have with players under 80, and dribble accuracy, it's why i've enjoyed this game and PES 2011 especially, why i enjoy the reduced ball control for poor players and how it gives a big variety for players, how it teaches you not to dribble with certain players, to use them to their strengths and create tactics to suit hem all. No two players in how you use them are the same on -2. Making you have to think about how to get the best out of all of them.

I did some global percentage edits to try reduce the ball control because too many players had over 80, which is key milestone in PES, and has been since PES 2010, also percentage reduced things like passing accuracy, balance, and a few other attributes and PES Stats Database do make players just feel a bit more generic compared to the default, however they do rate some lesser known players better compared to Konami.

 

[gerd]

I don't mind loosing games at all.
What i do mind is loosing games for the wrong reasons.
If i do things wrong, i don't have a problem with loosing.
But if i have 60% or more possession and have 25 shots on goal and loose the match 1-0 when the CPU has two shots on goal, then something is wrong. This happens in football (Barcelona-Chelsea anyone?)...

Yes it happens in football (that is even one of the most attractive things in football), but it doesn't happen regularly. Sometimes you got the impression you might do whatever you want and you will never win some matches in PES. And once i tested that.

It was a PES on PSP (don't remember which, but it has to be in the current gen games, because that was when i played much more PES on PSP, because the game was better on PSP than on PS3 or 360). I played a Master League with AZ67 and had to play NAC. I totally dominated them but i didn't score and this always for weird reasons. On top of that the CPU scored a weird goal and i lost the match. I was pissed off and decided to cheat and replay the match...i lost again exactly the same way (well of course not 100% but roughly 60%) and then i got stubborn and decided to play NAC until i won...i gave up after 27 attempts (i know this sounds ridiculous, but i felt cheated).

Am i a bad player? Well i'm not as bad as people think i am. Until PES6 and also in PES2011 i played the game at the highest difficulty and won ML silverware with modest teams like Sochaux, Palermo, Getafe...so i'm not that bad.

PES AI cheats...you can embellish it with all the post and all the arguments you want, but the fact remains that PES cheats and IMO the cheating gets worse (except for PES2011).

 

[Thespeedster84]

if there is rematch option in let's say football life... Doesn't it mean that you have the chance to win the same match ?

Unless you can never win the same match no matter what, then even i do not like the term but i should say it is a blatant cheat

 

[CalcioCalabrese]

Turn off auto-save if you're worried about CPU cheating. Wait, that's cheating too

I agree with most of your thoughts Klash - the amount of people I know that talk up the beautiful game but then I see them play FIFA or PES and they basically spam sprint or finesse shots or whatever...not a lot of them try to play football. Sure - there are times when you can't do anything about a goal, but I think they've toned it down nicely post patch.

 

[Blanco]

I test this game more than I play it and I'm 100% sure there's blatant cheating. And there always was.
The best way to detect these is playing a match in superslomo via a kitserver speed hack.

-Sometimes the game influences your direction, hardly noticable when you play at normal speeds though. I'm not talking about railing btw.
- Sometimes the game doesn't allow you to select a vital player to make sure the CPU can do what he wants to do.
- There is a catch-up bug, but only when you use R1+R2 to knock the ball a little further. When you just use R1 to sprint he won't catch that easy. That unrealistic because you should be faster without a ball instead of slower and you are not rewarded for the effort. They give you the option but you are not rewarded when you use it. It simple how they do it, the game makes your steps smaller and the chaser's steps bigger. I'm nuts, I even counted the steps.
- Sometimes the game disables your player during situations with the loose balls, clearances and rebounds, happens a lot. Very noticeable when you play in superslomo.


and a lot more... i'm not in the mood to list them all, I think we know them all.

Anyway, I agree that you have to stay calm, you have to change your tactics, line up, formations on the situation, you have to make substitutes, you have to change your running speed all the time and only sprint when you really can, the importance of the R2 button... and so on and on.
PES is a very demanding game, you can't be lazy when you want to win the match.

I've learned a lot the last months and I wrote reminders and tutorials for myself because I know I remember things better when I write them down. Sometimes I share these, like I did with my defending tips thread.
But at the end you have to do what's possible in the game, you have to beat the game instead of playing football the way you know it. You have to realise you can't do the same things the CPU does and even your teammates are not a big help. Sometimes I have the feeling they play more against me than the opposition team does, whatever tactics i use.

 

[jammiedodger]

Yes if you have time to look at a replay from every angle possible you will find there is a lot of issues with player on player collision as well as player and ball collision. But it has improved since 2011.

Just enjoy the game for what it is, why are some people spending so much time analyzing replays from different angles just to find and excuses for losing. Its not the end of the world I'm pretty sure it happens to computer controlled teams also. I'm sure over a season the decisions balance themselves out.

Fingers crossed pes2013 will improve even more so in this department but I'm pretty sure its wont be fully eradicated 100 percent.

 

[Blanco]

Lol, I don't analyse the replay to find excuses for losing. I betatest gameplay patches and they try to nail the cheating scripts, so I have to check them out.

Yes, It happens with CPU team, but not in the same amount it does with the human team. When you play with red arrows for your team and lets say green or worse for the CPU team, you will see more cheating scripts and a lot of ghosting. I'm pretty sure the form arrows trigger the scripts. Play matches with green arrows for both teams and you will see almost none.

 

[henrys hand]

Turn off auto-save if you're worried about CPU cheating. Wait, that's cheating too

It's not cheating. In real life football, you never go into a match unprepared, there are people that analyse the play-style, strenghts, weaknesses and usual tactics of the opponent and then finetune the own tactics according to that.

In PES 2012 you can't really do that, so you have to play against the other team to find out how they work and then you can set up tactics well. So the first match is just a rehearsal.

 

[henrys hand]

Lol, I don't analyse the replay to find excuses for losing. I betatest gameplay patches and they try to nail the cheating scripts, so I have to check them out.

Yes, It happens with CPU team, but not in the same amount it does with the human team. When you play with red arrows for your team and lets say green or worse for the CPU team, you will see more cheating scripts and a lot of ghosting. I'm pretty sure the form arrows trigger the scripts. Play matches with green arrows for both teams and you will see almost none.

That's interesting, maybe it's the way of the game to represent that more fit players have more abilities and more opportunities, maybe the game can't illustrate it realistically, given the limitations of animation and physics.

 

[klashman69]

I test this game more than I play it and I'm 100% sure there's blatant cheating. And there always was.
The best way to detect these is playing a match in superslomo via a kitserver speed hack.

-Sometimes the game influences your direction, hardly noticable when you play at normal speeds though. I'm not talking about railing btw.
- Sometimes the game doesn't allow you to select a vital player to make sure the CPU can do what he wants to do.
- There is a catch-up bug, but only when you use R1+R2 to knock the ball a little further. When you just use R1 to sprint he won't catch that easy. That unrealistic because you should be faster without a ball instead of slower and you are not rewarded for the effort. They give you the option but you are not rewarded when you use it. It simple how they do it, the game makes your steps smaller and the chaser's steps bigger. I'm nuts, I even counted the steps.
- Sometimes the game disables your player during situations with the loose balls, clearances and rebounds, happens a lot. Very noticeable when you play in superslomo.


and a lot more... i'm not in the mood to list them all, I think we know them all.

Anyway, I agree that you have to stay calm, you have to change your tactics, line up, formations on the situation, you have to make substitutes, you have to change your running speed all the time and only sprint when you really can, the importance of the R2 button... and so on and on.
PES is a very demanding game, you can't be lazy when you want to win the match.

I've learned a lot the last months and I wrote reminders and tutorials for myself because I know I remember things better when I write them down. Sometimes I share these, like I did with my defending tips thread.
But at the end you have to do what's possible in the game, you have to beat the game instead of playing football the way you know it. You have to realise you can't do the same things the CPU does and even your teammates are not a big help. Sometimes I have the feeling they play more against me than the opposition team does, whatever tactics i use.

Yes, these are the main cheats the CPU use from my experiences, there's times when i miss tap ins and other possible goal oppotunities when this stuff happens, i think we need to see how much of this is pure cheating and how much is buggy game mechanic.

 

[klashman69]

Yes, It happens with CPU team, but not in the same amount it does with the human team. When you play with red arrows for your team and lets say green or worse for the CPU team, you will see more cheating scripts and a lot of ghosting. I'm pretty sure the form arrows trigger the scripts. Play matches with green arrows for both teams and you will see almost none.

The arrows are highly interesting. In PES 2011, the arrows are closely connected to the trenacity stat, if the player has low tenacity and low form, his condition arrow affects him more in a negative way.

Jussie was the perfect emaple of this, technical player, good technique good passing, decent movement but modist overall at 71, on his day when with green or esepcially on orange and red, he was great, majestic at times. But on a blue or prurple, sucha totally useless player. everything he does is shit, gives the ball away his nice touch goes down the fucking toilet.

Compare that to someone like Gerrard, far more consistent player, even on blue and purple he plays well, the tenaicty is key, it shows how much a player is affected b condition arrows, shows how much their game falls off when losing.

This is where the cheating and scripted plays could spawn from. the way konami implement it still needs work, but ti's interesting to look at to see it causes horrible stuff but also causes good stuff.

Dammed if you do, dammed if you don't.