Bad news for italy

[Ad16]

so do I but all the pro-english league people dont

What is pro English in this thread, I don't get it? I completely agree with what lo zio said then as well. But examples of this happen all over Europe. The difference is how each country deals with the same problem. The Italian authorities are not doing anywhere near enough to combat radical groups of hooligans. It is understandable if they wish to shut the leagues down in the short term. They need to set in place clear initiatives or this sort of thing could happen in a months time or even next week.

The pro-english league people are extremely biased and feel strong because they sense they are on their home turf...virtual world does acknowledge nationalities let alone chauvinists....

Who are you referring to here? This comment could be seen as quite offensive. Making a statement about disregarding facts based on nationality. Base statements that users have posted on them, and not the country they are from. What on earth does "home turf" have to do with anything? I know some comments have been clearly chauvinistic, but pinpoint those comments or clearly label individuals.

Once again this has nothing to do with football...it is "merely" a coïncidence that this happened in the margin of a football match.

Football however has to be cleaned up (and not alone in Italy, as a matter of fact things happening in England at clubs like Chelsea, Man Utd, Aston Villa, West Ham United and soon Liverpool are far more worrying).

Well it does have something to do with football actually. How can the link be disregarded. Sure violence exists outside of the game, we obviously know that. But football becomes a breeding ground and focal point to direct the animosity of those taking part. This is not an isolated incident. If the Italian powers are issuing a full scale threat to their national game, it must be a large scale problem. These things aren't done on a whim surely.

I also find it hard to take you reference to the high profile takeovers of English clubs in recent times. Although it is somewhat worrying that some clubs are under the control of outside investment, as long as it is above board and beneficial to the club I don't see a problem. If you invest in a football club you will lose a lot of money, fact. The overseas investors are the only businessmen willing to do this it seems. How is this more worrying than the problems a country like Italy has with corruption and violence? The two are incomparable. It is well known that Italy needs to address these areas. It's time they cleaned up the game. We should all want that. If it takes canceling football for a period to do that then so be it.

This is nothing to do with me being pro English at all, I have nothing against Italian football whatsoever. But lets put this serious situation in context a bit. Football is nothing in importance compared to the underlying issues there are.

 

[lo zio]

@ ad16:
mate, i'm sure Stan wasn't referring to anyone in particular (sorry stan, for replying at your place, but it looks like i've got nothing to do this sunday :lol: ). Probably he was talking about the whole english community in this forum.
actually i got to say i noticed it too. obviously isn't just an englishmen problem. there are a lot of italian and french chauvinist too (even in this forum :roll: ), but the english community is the biggest in this forum, so it is more evident

The difference is how each country deals with the same problem. The Italian authorities are not doing anywhere near enough to combat radical groups of hooligans.

:applause: :applause: :applause:
exactly

If the Italian powers are issuing a full scale threat to their national game, it must be a large scale problem. These things aren't done on a whim surely.

true. that's the point of this thread

If you invest in a football club you will lose a lot of money

believe me mate, this is far from being true. Do u think abramovich, or arabians, or glazer did the whole thing just for popularity? football is an asset very profitable.I know it may sounds weird, according to the amount of money spent by football clubs owners, but marketing and advertising rules are weird actually)
Palermo's chairman owns almost 100 supermarket in italy. Last year he said that his profits increased a lot since he bought palermo (and he said it was cause he bought palermo).
otherwise he wouldn't have any interest in buying palermo footbal club...... is not even born in palermo.
btw let's get back to the topic.

How is this more worrying than the problems a country like Italy has with corruption and violence?

it isn't

But lets put this serious situation in context a bit. Football is nothing in importance compared to the underlying issues there are.

of course

 

[mad87mad]

lo zio
totally agree with you
i dont know why u guys make it coz of italian football its so bad
and it happens everywhere its mistake they need to solve it correctly
not by another mistake like closed doors matches

 

[Cloud1863]

@ ad16:
mate, i'm sure Stan wasn't referring to anyone in particular (sorry stan, for replying at your place, but it looks like i've got nothing to do this sunday :lol: ). Probably he was talking about the whole english community in this forum.
actually i got to say i noticed it too. obviously isn't just an englishmen problem. there are a lot of italian and french chauvinist too (even in this forum :roll: ), but the english community is the biggest in this forum, so it is more evident

I just looked at what Stan was on about and I cant actually see what he starting a problem about in the first place.

The English superiority complex is visible in this thread...i would think that football fans from the nation that "invented" hooliganism should express themselves a litle bit more carefull.

To me that is a dig, a bit of a well you did it so you have no right to make comment, which to me is an insult.

I dont think its all pro-English either apart from the usual suspect/s. :p

I think the comment is actually anti-English, I guess thats just my opinion though.

 

[lo zio]

To me that is a dig, a bit of a well you did it so you have no right to make comment, which to me is an insult.

I dont think its all pro-English either apart from the usual suspect/s. :p

I think the comment is actually anti-English, I guess thats just my opinion though.

if u read carefully all the posts in that page (the first) u'll understand why he talked like this

it's not about "anti-English feelings"


gettin' back on topic: the numbers of jailed people is 27 now (10 of them under 18 years old)

 

[gerd]

Stan posting as Gerd (sorry i have two nicks).
My comment was never intended as anti-English. If people perceive it that way: i'm deeply sorry. I never wanted to hurt people's feelings. I love English football, that's why i keep coming at this forum.

BUT...

Just like lo zio and other foreign people (i'm Belgian), i do sense some sort of superiority feeling with quite a few of the English people on this forum.
Some examples:
"There is no doubt, the Premiership is by far the strongest league". Well, as much as i like it, i'm not quite sure it is...but that does not matter in this thread...it's the fact that people who doubt this perception are seen as anti-English...we are not anti-English. The fact that i'm a member for more than 5 years and haven't got a single "yellow card" proves that.

Second example:

Every time before a major tournament like WC or EC there is the massive gulf of expectation that the English national team will win it this time...when foreign people doubt the favourite role people react bad...yet every time in the end they are proven right...i make it a rule of thumb never to visit this forum on a night when the English national team has been eliminated in a major tournament...but the fact that you have to do that proves enough...

Third example:
The wrong perception of the achoievements of English club teams in the CL...to me and to most non-English people on this forum they are underachieving. Since the CL exists, merely two English teams have won it...Man Utd in 1999 and Liverpool in 2005. Yet among the twenty richest sports teams in the world are 4 English football teams...given the importance of money in sports, i call that underachiving. Each time i point this out there is aggro (reactions among the line of: you have no right to say that until Belgian teams are getting better results than English, which is highly irrelevant).

In this thread (at the beginning) a few English people had very degrading comments about one of the the biggest football nations in the world, if you don't see that...you are seriously biased.

About the take-overs of big clubs: read about the way Abromovich took over Chelsea (and how he earned that money) or how Glazier put himself in debt and transferred those debts to Man Utd...not good for both clubs and certainly not for football. The English Premiership is not a fair competition...there is a huge gap between the top 4 and the rest...English (and European) football needs rules like NBA (i've said that countless times on this forum). In the long term this more worrying than the death of a single police men (how much this may be a tragedy for the man and his family and for Italian society).

To end: once again i don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, if i did: once again i'm very sorry...the two people who reacted are sensible people, my comment about English superiority certainly was not about them and i can understand that they feel offended.

 

[marukomu]

I think some of that superiority is actually English people feeling a little hard done to. We were banned from Europe for 5 years whereas other nations seemed to get away with a lot. Every week we saw footage of violence from Turkey, Greece, Germany and Holland but nothing was ever done about it. Admittedly we were probably the worst offenders but we were the only ones that were punished.
When we see it happening in other countries we sometimes over react a little and demand something is done.

Before that ban, we were arguably the strongest nation in european competitions, and we're only really getting near that again now.

 

[lo zio]

Every week we saw footage of violence from Turkey, Greece, Germany and Holland but nothing was ever done about it. Admittedly we were probably the worst offenders but we were the only ones that were punished.

mate, that's not true. each year some teams get punished for their violent attitude. but the organization has to punish the results of violence and they can be really different.

feyenoor got a punishment balanced with their actions. in the past few years inter, Roma, an galatasaray got a punishment balanced to their actions.

friday catanesi had a violent attitude, and they will get a punishment balanced to the results of their attitude (1 man death)...

..but in 1989 96 people died. i'd say there's a difference. Yesterday i saw on the tv a reportage on english hooligans and i saw something really scaring, mate.... there's a difference. and there must be a difference in the punishment too. it is quite obvious, don't u think?

When we see it happening in other countries we sometimes over react a little and demand something is done.

i can understand this kind of reaction. And i don't think is a "over" reaction. 1 man died friday. and something HAS to be done.

Before that ban, we were arguably the strongest nation in european competitions, and we're only really getting near that again now.

Perfect mate, what i'm going to write is HIGHLY off topic, but if this can be the chance to write something important, let it be.

u say "we were arguably the strongest". Well i think this is the wrongest thing u can say when u talk about sport. and this because sport is not about arguing. sport is about fact! FACT.

the most beautiful thing in sport is that it is simple. a football match will always get a result (in real life this happens rarely). Now u can face this result or not; it's up to u. But the results ALWAYS HAS TO TELL WHO WAS THE BEST IN THAT COMPETITION. Because if u don't accept the result, if u say "yes they won, but we were better! they didn't really deserve it", well when u talk like this the COMPETITION HAS NO MEANING. Sport has no meaning.

u're saying that before '89 england was the best. But do u remember which players argentina had between '80 and '90? well, i remember them. I remember burruchaga, caniggia, kempes, maradona, passerella ruggeri, valdano....
i remember germany, i remember matthaus, klinsmann, kholer, rummenigge, voeller.

mate those were the strongest teams those days. and it is not arguably, coz the results says it. they played the final of mexico '86. and if u are a sportman, u have to accept the result and honor the winner. by saying the england was "arguably" the best, u humiliate those who really won something those years. and u humiliate yourself (coz u admit that u can't face a result).
those years england wasnt' even right behind argentina and germany. behind them there was France and an impressive belgium. that's what the result says. we play in a competition to discover who is the best, so what's the point in playing if then u say "we were arguably the best"?

There was a big hype around england football team last summer, but i really didn't understand why. did u really thought england was better than the others. How can u compare 2 different top players?
I mean, u can compare me to Lampard. Lampard is for sure better than me( :roll: ). But how can u compare Lampard to Totti? They're both world class player. it's not possible to "argue" about who is the best.

let's try to "compare" pirlo and gerrard. i'd say now gerrard is playing better than pirlo. but 6 months ago pirlo was playing better (actually he was really on another level).
Then what? do u think pirlo became a worst player, or gerrard improved? It is not about that. We're talking about top players so u can't say who is absolutely the best . but u can see them playing better or worst according to their mood, to their motivations.

u can compare a ferrari to an alfa romeo. "arguably" a ferrari will be faster. But u can't compare a ferrari to a lamborghini. they're both top performances cars, maybe a ferrari is better in a curvish circuit while a lamborghini may be better on a straight circuit.

as u can see in theese cases details, circumstances, may be decisive.

do u wanna know wich national played the best soccer in the last wc? imo it wasn't italy, neither france or england; they were argentina and germany.
but u won't ever hear me say that argentina and germany deserved the title more than us or france. because that would mean denying the result. that would mean humiliating italy achievements and france achievements.

germany and argentina showed the most beautiful football. but footbal is not about playing "joga bonito". football is not about being "arguably" the best. football is about win or loose, and that's all. it's simple (and that's why it is so beautiful).

germany, agentina, france, italy, brazil, holland, portugal..... they're all top teams. u can't compare them. they had a competition, and (as always) details were decisive.
in football details are mood, conditioning, and, most important WILL.

italy won cause our players will was impressive. do u wanna know why cannavaro was better than terry (just to make an example)?
because cannavaro had to show that he still was the best in his role. because he had to show to every club in the world that he still was a "good buy" (real madrid?). terry hadn't this will cause his future was "safer". the same can be said for pirlo, gattuso, zambrotta, oddo, and all the other guys.
if u wanna know my opinion, without Moggi's scandal, we wouldn't have won the wc.
our players where hungry. they were more hungry than the others and that's all.........DETAILS, that's the only difference when u talk about top players.

and that's the reason why brazil won more wc than everybody else. not because the always had the strongest team, but because they're always hungry.

the difference between a winner and a loser most of the times is not quality........ is WILL, is BEING HUNGRY

 

[gerd]

Lo zio while i agree with your reaction, i think you misunderstood marukomu's reply.
I think he was talking about the English club teams in European competitions before Heysel...and then one has to be objective: English clubs dominated European club football (Euro Cups for Liverpool, Nottingham Forest, Aston Villa, Everton, Spurs). As a matter of fact there is no arguing, English teams simply were the best in those years.
I don't agree with his "catching up" argument...with the money getting so much more important, the catching up was done in one season right at the start of the Premiership...

 

[Ad16]

In this thread (at the beginning) a few English people had very degrading comments about one of the the biggest football nations in the world, if you don't see that...you are seriously biased.

Of course, these degrading comments are there to see.

I understand the examples you have chosen in the rest of this post as well. They tie in with the subject of the English media over in PLF's thread, In which I have criticized my countries press on many occasions. It's obvious that the some of themselves and the majority of English fans don't see past the premiership, but you can't say this concludes a superiority complex, more, naivety and lack of knowledge in my opinion. Just like foreign individuals who state that English food is rubbish, without basis whatsoever. This is a stereotype that still sticks to the present day.

Listen, we all know that each of our countries have superiority issues, that's a fact. There's just no need to bring up a perceived English one in relation to a couple of idiotic posts. Those comments were stupid, quite stupid indeed. But when you mention things like English superiority to describe these people, it groups them with individuals like myself, which gives me a label I am not comfortable with. That's the reason I took exception to some of your previous comments. I know you probably didn't mean harm, but you understand I needed to question it.


As for what marukomu said, it's not a view I chose to believe. I don't feel hard done by at all when it comes to past events. I try to stick impartial when it comes to football so that's to be expected. I do feel hard done by in situations like this however, where past events are used almost like a comeback.

"i would think that football fans from the nation that "invented" hooliganism should express themselves a litle bit more carefull".

Like Cloud1863 was getting at, this is the wrong attitude and sounded a bit cheap in my opinion. There was provocation from those chauvinistic comments, but this wasn't needed, especially when it referred to a part of the post that technically stated the truth. Italy does have a problem with hooliganism.

 

[lo zio]

I think he was talking about the English club teams in European competitions before Heysel...

i see. then i guess i just misunderstood him.... i thought he was talking about england national team.... my fault


btw, getting back to the topic:
the numbers of people jailed increased to 35. Catania stadium and catania ultras club have been seized.

 

[ZaGabria]

How would this incident affect Italy's Euro 2012 bid? As far as I know the host is to be elected in 2 months and Italy was the fovourite to get the tournament until now

 

[lo zio]

How would this incident affect Italy's Euro 2012 bid? As far as I know the host is to be elected in 2 months and Italy was the fovourite to get the tournament until now

That's a good question, mate. actually i have no idea. Pancalli said "may last worry at the moment is euro 2012, but if we will lost euro 2012 coz of this, we'll deserve it".

i'd say it's quite agreable. but nontheless i would be very sad if we would lost euro 2012 coz of this 35 little bastards. euro 2012 could be a great chance for us to have new stadia, and english experience teached us how important are modern stadia to prevent disorders.

we'll see :roll:

 

[*aLe]

well, not sure about Euro 2012.. also I think that Pancalli said something agreeable.

anyways, Zio.. we would have already had new and safer stadia (way before 2012), if only the Pisanu act had been applied the way it was meant to be.

 

[lo zio]

anyways, Zio.. we would have already had new and safer stadia (way before 2012), if only the Pisanu act had been applied the way it was meant to be.

true, that's the real problem. Applying the pisano act. People here in italy always talk about approving new laws, when something goes wrong. What's the point in approving new acts, if we still didn't applied laws we already approved.

When last year the Pisano act was approved i was one of the few here in italy who were happy about it. Sure is not the solution to all our problems. but it was a good beginning. and now here we are, one year after, Pisano act still is not applied, a policeman is dead..... and what are we talking about? New laws? that's ridiculous.
i just hope pancalli will find the strenght to lead us into the right way. he's the only one i trust in, at the moment :roll:

 

[Ad16]

I just saw Gabrielle Marcotti on SkySports news. He made similar points to those already said in this thread. The police and the authorities need to work harder to address the problem. And the stadia in Italy need drastic improvement.

 

[lo zio]

And the stadia in Italy need drastic improvement.

true. we should have done this a long time ago. Wich may appear quite weird as a lot of them we're built just in the '90s

but here's the problem: our stadia aren't owned by football clubs. they're property of the cities. each city has more important problems than upgrading a stadium so they didn't anything.

Football club owners doensn't want to buy theese stadia from the cities (as they're already old, and they would need big upgrades) so now they're starting to think to raise new stadia (which would be nice).
but theese greedy millionaires pretend a loan at 0% interest from the cities. Obviously no city major would ever accept this, and so we still didn't anything

 

[gomito#10]

El Diego is such a moron, can we please ban him again. For instance he states that its common for someone to die in Italian football, taken from an AP article

"Laciti was the 13th person to be killed in or around Italy's football stadiums since 1962. The last fatality at a Serie A match happened in 1995 when a Genoa fan was stabbed to death before a game against AC Milan."


How many people died at that liverpool game in the 80's? The one in england not a european game.

 

[Jake_Hazuki]

El Diego is such a moron, can we please ban him again. For instance he states that its common for someone to die in Italian football, taken from an AP article

"Laciti was the 13th person to be killed in or around Italy's football stadiums since 1962. The last fatality at a Serie A match happened in 1995 when a Genoa fan was stabbed to death before a game against AC Milan."


How many people died at that liverpool game in the 80's? The one in england not a european game.

:applause: :applause: :applause:

El Diego should get baned he is so stupid with his comments. The last death was pretty bad being stabbed over football

 

[Massacre_1907]

if they ban it, i think the federation should double/triple their security because fans will go crazy without futbol...

 

[Stan]

Like Cloud1863 was getting at, this is the wrong attitude and sounded a bit cheap in my opinion. There was provocation from those chauvinistic comments, but this wasn't needed, especially when it referred to a part of the post that technically stated the truth. Italy does have a problem with hooliganism.

Ok, i just wanted to use the same sort of arguments that was used in the bginning of this thread...this without realising that it could offend perfectly reasonable people like Cloud and you: once again sorry....

 

[El Diego]

El Diego is such a moron, can we please ban him again. For instance he states that its common for someone to die in Italian football, taken from an AP article

Please find where I said it was COMMON for someone to die in Italian football? Also, stop calling for people to be banned when you don't understand or agree with someone else's OPINION!

 

[marukomu]

csaunders, asking for a poster to be 'sent off' is a bookable offence. :lol:

back on topic.
One way to help deal with this problem is for the Italian police to meet with the English police and get training in the correct way to deal with crowd trouble. I remember the England v Italy game where it kicked off and a lot of the problems escalated when the police moved in aggresively. Some people that weren't involved got caught up in the trouble and reacted.
In recent world cups, there has been less trouble because of cooperation between different countries.

 

[gerd]

I still claim that this has nothing to do with football or with Italy.
Belgium was shocked by a murder friday night. Two eighteen year olds were outside smoking a cigarette. A third young man (17) passed and asked a cigarette, both others refused. He draw a knife, killed one and wounded the other...

A couple of months ago another youth was killed for an MP3 player and some weeks after that another one went on a killing trip in the city of Antwerp...he killed three people with a long rifle...he was an avid GTA player....

Shall we defend cigarettes, MP3 players and Grand Theft Auto????
Superficially it may seem that football, cigarettes, MP3 players and video games are to blame...they aren't. It's our society.

People are stressed, people don't have the time to talk with young people or to listen to young people...we live in an ego-centric society where normal contact seems more and more difficult. Yesterday Romano Prodi, the Italian PM claimed that the death of the police man is a tell tale of a problem in Italian society. He is right but it isn't an exclusive Italian problem. There is violence in Belgium, in Poland, in England, in the States....

 

[marukomu]

yes, but we still have to deal with it. We don't have those running street battles in England that we had in the 70's and 80's now because the police know how to avoid them.

 

[lo zio]

One way to help deal with this problem is for the Italian police to meet with the English police and get training in the correct way to deal with crowd trouble.

:applause: :applause:
this would be a very good idea.Actually one of our problems is that our police forces don't know how to handle the crowd.

People are stressed, people don't have the time to talk with young people or to listen to young people...we live in an ego-centric society where normal contact seems more and more difficult. Yesterday Romano Prodi, the Italian PM claimed that the death of the police man is a tell tale of a problem in Italian society. He is right but it isn't an exclusive Italian problem. There is violence in Belgium, in Poland, in England, in the States....

u're absolutely right mate, but something terrible happened last friday. It may happen everywhere in the world, but friday it happened here in italy, so we got to deal with it (as Marukomu said). it may happen everywhere in the city, but friday it happened outside a stadium, during a football match, and we got to deal with it.

As Cloud correctly said before, those thugs used football as a tool. And i replyed him, that's just coz of this that we haven't to operate on "football matches aspects" but on "our society aspects" to solve this problem (coz otherwise those guys will just find another "tool" to use).
but this isn't a piece of cake. we're talking about something almost utopic, a society without violence (i say "almost" coz i think that dialogue and parent's education still can do a lot on this aspect).

but there's one other thing that we have to notice. some of our stadia are not safe. now, i hope one day italian society will be a new Pericle's Athens, a place where's no room for intollerance and violence. but in the meanwhile, before we "civilize" theese idiots, we got to keep them away from our stadia, to preserve people like me from being involved in riots like that.

i'm sure english society is as far as us from that almost utopic model i described before, but at least they managed to keep their stadia safer places.

i saw another reportage on tv yesterday evening and they say that, according to the information of our police forces, in the first year of application of the pisano act, the number of people wounded during football matches decreased by 50%. And that's a great result if u consider that the pisano act was just partially applied (the most important part still didn't find application).
we just need to complete what we already started.




--------------------------------------------------------------

asking for a poster to be 'sent off' is a bookable offence.

true guys. Moreover there's no need to ban anybody. Diego has the right to express his "opinions".
Of course we have some rights too. We can reply, we can decide to ignorate him, if we think he doesn't deserve an answer, or we can just have a laugh at him and his statements (we all got to admit that he can be really funny).

When are the Italian football clubs going to stop racist nazi supporters carrying knives into their poor-attended matches?

btw mate, this is not an "opinion" like u think. this is a fact. a fact may happen or not, may be true or not. know, i won't ever say that your opinions are wrong, as an opnion can't be "wrong or right" but more or less agreable.
but as long as this...... When are the Italian football clubs going to stop racist nazi supporters carrying knives into their poor-attended matches ..... is a fact, i can say, that what u're saying is wrong mate. i'know italian stadia a lil' better than u, and i can say that u crearly don't know what u're talking about.

now u got 3 choices:
1) u can be serious and start post something that really "add something" to our conversation;

2 u can open a new thread about "how much serie a sucks"...... (so u won't be off topic anymore)...

3) ......... otherwise u'll taste my "knife" ...

[/url][/IMG]

:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:



---------------------------------------------------------------


now, getting back to the topic, here there are some good news:

1)next week serie will be back again.

2) from next week on, all serie matches will be played with closed doors, except the matches that will be played in stadia that are respectful of the Pisano act parameters :applause: :applause: :applause: (that's a great move. this way all our stadia will be upgraded as soon as possible according to the pisano act parameters);

3) at the moment the only stadia that are "Pisano act ready" are
- stadio olimpico (torino)
- ferraris (genova)
- Renzo Barbera, la favorita (palermo.....\\:o/ )
- stadio olimpico (roma)
theese will be the only stadia opened to the crowd. The others will be closed till the "pisano upgrade"
(i know a lot of football supporters will be very sad about this, but nonetheless they will agree that that's the only way to put some pressure on our city majors to upgrade the stadia)

4) DASPO: The daspo is a decree that prohibits organised groups of supporters that are often characterised by violent phenomena to enter into stadia during football matches. those people will be forced to do "social works" (cleaning hospitals and things like this) during football matches. the decree last for 2 years.

this is just a beginning. but it's a good beginning.

 

[Dominic]

Thank you for the information, Lo Zio.

 

[Abhishek]

Yeh, thanks Lo Zio, great news!

 

[*aLe]

That's a good beginning, I agree. but in all this, the very weird thing is that we had to wait someone to die, before even thinking of applying Pisanu act the way it should be..

it's so ridicolous!

 

[Ad16]

Sounds like a good start.

this would be a very good idea.Actually one of our problems is that our police forces don't know how to handle the crowd.

Could be a good thing to try yeah. From what I have heard, the Italian police are pretty lazy. They stand around waiting for trouble. Then when it kicks off they charge in with batons hitting anybody they see. They should single out the bad individuals before the fighting has a chance to develop. Then a lot of innocent people caught up in the event could avoid the violence. This is what they do in England.