Evoweb Gameplay Lab, FIFA 20 (Frostbite FIFAs?)

I've really been trying to eliminate the 1v1 issue in anticipation of it being in 21. It doesn't seem possible from what I've found so far. I think various things can improve the impact of it, but at its core I'm not sure we're able to get rid completely. So frustrating as I feel this one element is the biggest issue with the game. If it's improved in 21 that could help things massively but we'll see.

I think I'm getting closer with an update in regards to other elements of the gameplay, but then the 1v1 just frustrates. I’ve worked on slowing player movement/turns, acceleration, some more fouls and I’ve been trying to make the game a bit more interesting in terms of general movement around the pitch and chances.
 
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Anth James said:
I've really been trying to eliminate the 1v1 issue in anticipation of it being in 21. It doesn't seem possible from what I've found so far. I think various things can improve the impact of it, but at its core I'm not sure we're able to get rid completely. So frustrating as I feel this one element is the biggest issue with the game. If it's improved in 21 that could help things massively but we'll see.

I think I'm getting closer with an update in regards to other elements of the gameplay, but then the 1v1 just frustrates. I’ve worked on slowing player movement/turns, acceleration, some more fouls and I’ve been trying to make the game a bit more interesting in terms of general movement around the pitch and chances.
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Yes unfortunately that's why I kinda just stopped playing some time ago (and hundreds of test games against man city were really getting on my nerves 😆) and why I was looking from the start for anything related to the new tactical system/player instructions, I must be a fair bit behind where you are right now with testing but it seemed like the new tactical system is way too influencial/rigid, plus the fact that some positioning files were not responding to changes made me suspect that maybe it's leftovers from the old tactical system. Whatever worked seemed to be about improving 1v1 reactions, which is fine, but getting rid of them, I don't know if it's possible.
 
manmachine said:
Yes unfortunately that's why I kinda just stopped playing some time ago (and hundreds of test games against man city were really getting on my nerves 😆) and why I was looking from the start for anything related to the new tactical system/player instructions, I must be a fair bit behind where you are right now with testing but it seemed like the new tactical system is way too influencial/rigid, plus the fact that some positioning files were not responding to changes made me suspect that maybe it's leftovers from the old tactical system. Whatever worked seemed to be about improving 1v1 reactions, which is fine, but getting rid of them, I don't know if it's possible.
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Yeah spot on with all of what you said. Some of the files don't appear to have an impact. I wonder if it's possible they don't work because Frosty Editor was quite an early release and didn't receive many updates. The db would be the only other place I could think of, but I don't know for sure. I have found various files relating to formation positions, player instructions etc but no idea how that works. The 'ballside overload' tactic I'd love to be able to find somewhere because at the very least it would show us how they've managed to move the whole team across the pitch as opposed to just one man.
 
Sunday morning personal view: try to edit team width. That would bring players a lot closer together. Try with sliders at 0 first, and if necessary, edit "Customization" files in frosty ed to make teams even narrower. I don't mean it as a solution, but rather as a way to see if changing this value helps. And I guess it would.

1vs1 do happen in football, the issue is that the second defender is not there in FIFA by design, while in real football he is most of the times (not all the times...)
 
Rafter84 said:
Sunday morning personal view: try to edit team width. That would bring players a lot closer together. Try with sliders at 0 first, and if necessary, edit "Customization" files in frosty ed to make teams even narrower. I don't mean it as a solution, but rather as a way to see if changing this value helps. And I guess it would.

1vs1 do happen in football, the issue is that the second defender is not there in FIFA by design, while in real football he is most of the times (not all the times...)
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I've tried this extensively. I use the width modifier in the formation files. It doesn't work the way you'd expect, because while teams do shuffle across some, they predominately keep their shape in the centre of the pitch. It actually makes the problem more clear to see, because when you play down a wing for example it will draw out the full back but the other CB or midfielders hold their position quite centrally based on the formation width. It sometimes works out that a second player does come across, but this is rare and usually based on an attacker coming close which brings the defender close as well. I've looked at various reaction files to see if I can try and get a response to danger, but nothing quite works properly. Sometimes it can happen, but it's the exception not the rule.

Yeah 1v1s happen, but it's the fact the AI does not mark space properly, they only mark 1 different target each. On the rare occasions when they do leave their target to come and mark the same player, it's generally too late. I've been playing PES 2013, PES 2014, PES 5, FIFA 16 lately to test, and in all of those games the way the AI marks the space is far better. They use more than one player and they defend as a team. If this one issue could be fixed I think the rest of the adjustments available could let us make a really good game.
 
Rafter84 said:
1vs1 do happen in football, the issue is that the second defender is not there in FIFA by design, while in real football he is most of the times (not all the times...)
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It could work as a zonal defence thing. When an attacker runs across the width of the pitch trying to create space & drag you out of position it makes sense for the defending team to not break shape and have different players switch their attention to the ball carrier, but of course no defensive midfielder would just stop to have a nap and let you have a party between the lines and run towards the defensive line at will.

I remember length helping only a bit with that, because if you lower it too much midfielders will then slot into the defensive line! It's frustrating, it's as if the game just requires a minimum amount of space in front of the defensive line.

The worrying thing about 21 (apart from the fact that 1v1 are still a thing) are the reports that 2nd man contain/mark are now even more useless. Not being able to set 2 man traps is making the game one dimensional & rather simplistic, even when attacking, as getting out of the trap means you now have an unmarked option somewhere.
 
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Yeah, true. This was definitely something introduced with FIFA 20 to push more tricks, croquetas and that shit... Hard to find how and where to disable that specific thing though... FIFA 21 will definitely keep that, seeing how they introduced the 21-touch-a-second dribbling...
 
Rafter84 said:
Yeah, true. This was definitely something introduced with FIFA 20 to push more tricks, croquetas and that shit... Hard to find how and where to disable that specific thing though... FIFA 21 will definitely keep that, seeing how they introduced the 21-touch-a-second dribbling...
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I'm clinging to some feedback that said it wasn't as bad. Although I have heard feedback which opposes this too...
 
By the way there's even a decent number of FUT players requesting second man press back.
To which request EA has actually recently responded with "it's a difficult thing to balance".

A BS answer but it does sound better than "lol, what are you smoking, we've already said 1v1s are still in the game".
Maybe in 2-3 years?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
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Anth James said:
I've really been trying to eliminate the 1v1 issue in anticipation of it being in 21. It doesn't seem possible from what I've found so far. I think various things can improve the impact of it, but at its core I'm not sure we're able to get rid completely. So frustrating as I feel this one element is the biggest issue with the game. If it's improved in 21 that could help things massively but we'll see.

I think I'm getting closer with an update in regards to other elements of the gameplay, but then the 1v1 just frustrates. I’ve worked on slowing player movement/turns, acceleration, some more fouls and I’ve been trying to make the game a bit more interesting in terms of general movement around the pitch and chances.
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Really looking forward to your update mate. Even with your great work I really can't like the game as much as I would like to. I never understood why there is not much support for Fifa 17 which imo is a really good game. Only drawback is the size of the ball. But if I want to play it, it's really outdated squads and not many mods to choose from. Oh well. Best of luck friend
 
final lap said:
Really looking forward to your update mate. Even with your great work I really can't like the game as much as I would like to. I never understood why there is not much support for Fifa 17 which imo is a really good game. Only drawback is the size of the ball. But if I want to play it, it's really outdated squads and not many mods to choose from. Oh well. Best of luck friend
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Thanks man. I hear you, I'm the same with it haha. I think there's some real positives of FIFA 20. I've played it more than any football game for a long time. But then (even with mods) there's just some elements that really prevent it from being great.

I've never played FIFA 17 actually. I recently went back and bought FIFA 16 and I think that's a great game.
 
Anth James said:
Thanks man. I hear you, I'm the same with it haha. I think there's some real positives of FIFA 20. I've played it more than any football game for a long time. But then (even with mods) there's just some elements that really prevent it from being great.

I've never played FIFA 17 actually. I recently went back and bought FIFA 16 and I think that's a great game.
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You should give fifa 17 a try. Really the last fifa that drew my attention for a long time
 
As promised, after several hours of testing, and after building many mods only to start from scratch some time later, here is my personal Sim Gameplay Test Mod: https://we.tl/t-4koPcOyhT1

Locale: https://we.tl/t-iGbHbJ4Odb (you can remove lines that are not relevant if you want)

Sliders: default (all at 50)

I will not comment much because I don't want to influence your views/feedback, which I hope you will send this way. Please try it and share your feedback!

PS: I haven't addressed tactics, second-man marking, passing lanes and similar issues.
 
Rafter84 said:
As promised, after several hours of testing, and after building many mods only to start from scratch some time later, here is my personal Sim Gameplay Test Mod: https://we.tl/t-4koPcOyhT1

Locale: https://we.tl/t-iGbHbJ4Odb (you can remove lines that are not relevant if you want)

Sliders: default (all at 50)

I will not comment much because I don't want to influence your views/feedback, which I hope you will send this way. Please try it and share your feedback!

PS: I haven't addressed tactics, second-man marking, passing lanes and similar issues.
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Thanks man, looking forward to trying it out. Could you upload the project file as I'm not using the latest version of FIFA.
 
Two videos with @tufkar84 mod. (Played in full manual and locale.ini by tufkar84)



I only played 5-6 matches, but what I noticed most is the stability of the body in passes and shots. The player do the needed steps to approach to shots and passes (in vanilla version the player can do 3 steps with the same foot...). This is the right path to finish with FIFA "Skating" 20. I really loved ball physics in passes, but sometimes bounce too much (when a player is trying to control de ball). I'll try to play unless 10-15 matches to give you a better feedback.
 
tufkar84 said:
Let me know if it works for you. If it doesn't, I'll share the project. The idea was to get feedback first, adjust accordingly, and then release the project for everybody to use at will.
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Got it working thanks. I haven't really been playing or working on FIFA 20 much in the last few weeks. I was working on the update and then I started playing PES 2013 and 2014 and have been having a blast with those. I played a couple of games with this today though and you've done a great job with the movement of the players and helping with the skating feeling. It looks much better and you've done a good job at fouls too (especially considering you've slowed things down). It's a little too close to vanilla for me in terms of team shape, pass error and differences between teams etc, but in terms of general player movement, turning etc you've done a really good job. Maybe one thing I thought of, (if it doesn't unbalance everything) is to create a little more of a difference between jog speed and sprint speed. The sprint speed seems to lack a little intensity. All in all though, I think this type of slowed down movement could be a real asset going into 21.
 
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Thanks for the feedback. I hope I can get some more, so I know what to improve for the next version.

The version shared is indeed close to vanilla, intentionally. Previous versions were overhauls, and at some point the gameplay just didn't work anymore for me... I have slowed legs and animations down, other than the overall player speed and acceleration. And made the ball a tiny bit larger, heavier and more separated from the player, more free in a way. This alone introduces "natural" errors. For example sometimes the attacker wants to shoot to the far post, but his shot goes to the near post instead, because, other than an error percentage, his legs and feet do not move quick enough to reach the running ball and hit it at the right spot.

I did edit Error values, but very little, because I have found that on top of what described above, having high error values would result in "unnatural" mistakes, like quick high through ball resulting in a fluffed 3-meter long lob pass.

We can indeed find a balance, but I didn't want to go there, because with the game being slower, having high passing errors makes the game a bit boring and frustrating for me.

Jog speed vs sprint speed: same here. I had jog and walk speed very low in previous versions and it worked for me. But when going back to the drawing board, I decided to leave it at default, because...well...it worked too... If that's what we want, I can definitely use previous values and see if it all feels better.


Again, after testing and changing every single value, my previous versions had too many unnecessary edits. So I played vanilla, and did not hate it... So I thought I had to change as few values as possible to still have my desired result but without breaking the gameplay.

Looking at 6ons1's videos was fun! A great chance for me to look at things from the outside! And understand what needs to be worked on! Thank you!

Final note: yes, as stated, I did not touch team shapes. It was not my priority and it's not something that bothered me too much with the current speed. Or at least, using sliders just a bit made shapes look better. Also, I seem to understand we didn't have much success with this, so I wasn't sure what to touch. I focused on other aspects, to be honest
 
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very interesting gameplay with good amount of fouls and a vanilla flow .. it is slow on normal even more playing full manual settings and that is a good thing .. just saw, did you unlocked Edit Player section and Restart Match .. ?!
 
BatsBike1314 said:
very interesting gameplay with good amount of fouls and a vanilla flow .. it is slow on normal even more playing full manual settings and that is a good thing ..
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Yes, you will find little to no difference between slow and normal. Both will play slow.


BatsBike1314 said:
just saw, did you unlocked Edit Player section and Restart Match .. ?!
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I don't think I have touched any of that. The locale has a line to unlock some unlockables, but I'm not sure it works by itself or if it needs additional mods.
 
o,that's fucking fantastic .. as i said playing full manual without altering sliders it's enjoyable even AI vs AI .. :SHOCK:
and controlling a very low team from a very low league(RegionalLiga from Germany) .. match after match adding the mods from page 1 makes me forget that fifa 21 countdown .. :)
 
BatsBike1314 said:
o,that's fucking fantastic .. as i said playing full manual without altering sliders it's enjoyable even AI vs AI .. :SHOCK:
and controlling a very low team from a very low league(RegionalLiga from Germany) .. match after match adding the mods from page 1 makes me forget that fifa 21 countdown .. :)
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🤣

I'm glad you are enjoying the mods! I think the best is yet to come!
 
@tufkar84 Testing your mod for 2 days in a row already, and it is amazing. Let me put my thoughts on it as well what can be improved.
I left Pes2020 ~2 month ago in favor of Fifa20. And you somehow managed to implement Pes gameplay features in Fifa in a good and also in not so good way.

What is good (or even - amazing):
  • Ball physics
  • Player turning and other animations become realistic and mush more fluid now
  • Headers - scored and lost couple of superb header goals
What might be improved:

To begin with - why I quit Pes. Just because I started to loose control over my games on superstar and higher difficulty levels. I feel that the user input doesn't matter anymore, like the game if for 70% automated (based on stats, tactics, scripts etc). Then I felt in love with vanilla Fifa (slow, legendary), because I still had that feeling of user input having highest priority. I loved that tactical manual defense, where you should defend really hard and can make really stupid mistakes that are costing you a goal. But it was my mistakes, and that feeling really engaged me.

This is exactly what I missing in your gameplay - the feeling of manual defense. I even feel sometimes that I can put my gamepad aside and rely on tactics only. And the goals I conceded was kinda random. Without having a feeling to be able to prevent them. Therefore is it possible to down-rate a defense a bit, for it to become more manual? For me defense have the same value and meaning in games as attack is.
Also overall player responsiveness can be increased a bit. Just a bit not on a same level as vanilla Fifa of course.

Also player falling to the ground to much without calling a foul. And after watching the replay there is a clear illegal contact visible. This 100% reminds me Pes. But it looks like it is not honest against user input. I like more simplified default approach in vanilla Fifa. That is the same reason I never played Fifa with handball turned on.

Anyway, a great job.
Feel free to share a project file if you wish. I can play with the settings by myself too.
 
Mario79 said:
@tufkar84 Testing your mod for 2 days in a row already, and it is amazing. Let me put my thoughts on it as well what can be improved.
I left Pes2020 ~2 month ago in favor of Fifa20. And you somehow managed to implement Pes gameplay features in Fifa in a good and also in not so good way.

What is good (or even - amazing):
  • Ball physics
  • Player turning and other animations become realistic and mush more fluid now
  • Headers - scored and lost couple of superb header goals
What might be improved:

To begin with - why I quit Pes. Just because I started to loose control over my games on superstar and higher difficulty levels. I feel that the user input doesn't matter anymore, like the game if for 70% automated (based on stats, tactics, scripts etc). Then I felt in love with vanilla Fifa (slow, legendary), because I still had that feeling of user input having highest priority. I loved that tactical manual defense, where you should defend really hard and can make really stupid mistakes that are costing you a goal. But it was my mistakes, and that feeling really engaged me.

This is exactly what I missing in your gameplay - the feeling of manual defense. I even feel sometimes that I can put my gamepad aside and rely on tactics only. And the goals I conceded was kinda random. Without having a feeling to be able to prevent them. Therefore is it possible to down-rate a defense a bit, for it to become more manual? For me defense have the same value and meaning in games as attack is.
Also overall player responsiveness can be increased a bit. Just a bit not on a same level as vanilla Fifa of course.

Also player falling to the ground to much without calling a foul. And after watching the replay there is a clear illegal contact visible. This 100% reminds me Pes. But it looks like it is not honest against user input. I like more simplified default approach in vanilla Fifa. That is the same reason I never played Fifa with handball turned on.

Anyway, a great job.
Feel free to share a project file if you wish. I can play with the settings by myself too.
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Ciao Mario! Italiano?

Thanks for your amazing feedback! I wish I had many more like this!

Truth be told: PES gameplay is indeed a reference point for my mods. I like how PES plays, but some issues (deep defensive line, some overpowered players, repetitiveness) killed the fun for me.

But I love how animations take full cycles before kicking the ball, and how players plant their feet. And the overall non-hectic feel. That's what I wanted to achieve with my mod, since I think that this, combined with FIFA potential, can result in a much more realistic experience.


Now, to your points.

Defense: I have increased marking and pressing, so that cpu makes it harder for you. Defenders are very close to attackers. The counter effect is that your defenders are very close too. Unfortunately there is no way I know to edit frosty values but just for the cpu. So my only solution is to tweak sliders. Sliders, human player, marking and test 0 or 25, and see what happens.

Responsiveness: making the game less responsive was a priority for me. I still think the game is very responsive, and if it's not in a specific situation, I think it's because of the animation and legs now being slower, which is intended. It can be made more responsive of course.

Fouls: yes, this is still work in progress. Players now fall a lot more, but referees are too lenient. I think I made improvements on this with latest updates, which I'll share tomorrow.

Project: starting from tomorrow I will share fbprojects too, so anybody willing to tweak at will to their taste, can do so.


So, tomorrow I will share an updated version. Fouls and crosses feel improved, I have increased pass error a bit (but not too much), and the overall player movement speed/fluidity has been reviewed. Expect it to feel different from last week's version, as the goal this week was to keep it slow but also have that "sparkle" when sprinting. I'm still not happy 100%, but I've made it slower for some aspects and faster in some other aspects. So it's a matter of finding the right balance.

G'night for now!
 
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