The Retro-PES Corner

Congratulations @Flipper the Priest. Now we need to harness some retro-PES energy to help Scotland shine on the actual Euro. After my International Cup adventures with China, I shall take Scotland to virtual greatness and join the cause. Another excuse to play some more PES2, I think.

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About that China adventure: as I said on a previous post, I would be creating a kind of "qualifying stage" using the six Asian national teams present in PES5; an International League controlling China in which the top-3 teams would participate on the International Cup. Needless to say, we were expected to finish rock bottom, perhaps alongside Saudi Arabia; Japan, Korea, Iran, Australia would in theory dispute the three qualifying spots.

Well, through solid defending though little to none offensive skill, we reached the last day of the qualifying stage on the 3rd place. If either Korea or Iran won their matches, China would need a win on the last fixture against Saudi Arabia to secure their participation on the International Cup. That particular match was being a hard-fought goalless battle like many before, and at half-time, both Iran and Korea were tied, meaning if nothing changed, we were qualified. Now, as I don't know what's happening on the other matches during the 2nd half, what do I do? Do I give it all for a goal or keep things as they are, hoping nothing changed on the other matches...? Well, I decide to keep things as they are. 0-0; on the very last play of the match, we get a corner kick. The ball is crossed but a defender clears it; before the referee blows the whistle because that play was predictably over, Sun Jihai heroically clears the ball away with a header, striker Lin Ou gets the ball on the edge of the box, he shoots it...and it's in! China 1-0 Saudi Arabia; China qualifies for the International Cup!!!

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Now, out of curiosity, how did the other matches go...?

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...Both Iran and Korea actually won, so if it wasn't for that incredible late Lin Ou goal, we wouldn't be qualified. Madness.

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Now the International Cup: we end up on a group comprised of Portugal, Netherlands and the United States...oh well, let's at least enjoy it.
 
...but what if we could do...more?

On the inaugural match, a matchup that could define the geopolitical future of the world, China vs. United States. Fortunately it ends 1-1.

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Next, vs. Portugal. The impossible happens. Portugal rests most of their first-teamers, including Ronaldo and Pauleta, and China takes advantage.

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Last group fixture vs the Netherlands. USA had to win their match and China had to lose if we were to let go of our comfortable 2nd place, but...China wows the world once again.

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China grabs the 1st place of the group and I the manager am given unlimited Social Credit points for life.

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Round of 16, vs. Cote D'Ivoire. Drogba, Yaya Toure and the like were a tough nut to crack providing us definitely the hardest match of the competition so far; we manage to hold on to the 0-0, take it to penalties and...

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YES! China lives to see another day. My dear President Xi has already announced plans for the construction of the Miguelfcp Arena. The People's Republic is out to conquer the world, apparently also in football.

(+9999999999999999 Social Credit points added to your wallet)
 
Flipper the Priest said:
After a few false dawns and a bit of confusion - I'm finally there! Already made a start on the Asian games too.

Meagre collection in comparison to some but I'm happy!

View attachment 65746
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Impressive!! :WORSHIP:

well, it’s the weekend and I got spare time... so I set up the old 2011 MacBook Pro with win10 this morning and put the newly acquired WE5 disc in.

first steps...

will try to connect the PlayStation DS4 to windows later and give it a try. I’m becoming so “retro nerdy” the last 2 weeks! :LOL:
 
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PRO_TOO said:
Impressive!! :WORSHIP:

well, it’s the weekend and I got spare... so I set up the old 2011 MacBook Pro with win10 this morning and put the newly acquired WE5 disc in.

first steps...

will try to connect the PlayStation DS4 to windows later and give it a try. I’m becoming so “retro nerdy” the last 2 weeks! :LOL:
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Nice one. Since you seem to have a beast-PC, try to upscale the graphics, there is a setting 2xnative, 4xnative, etc.... Try where you have steady FPS.
In my laptop, even in Nativex2, it almost vanishes the pixels, but it cannot afford the performance and have framedrops.
 
Nice one @PRO_TOO!

I'm torn on the PC/console front.

I only really have the hardware to run vanilla versions of PC games. And it looks so much better than it does on console! And I know if I had the firepower I could emulate PS2 games and play patched PC versions with a much sharper picture. Buuuutttt...

Playing on a TV and console just feels... right. I get a pretty decent picture. I've jailbroken a PS3 to run PS2/PS1 rips (so despite my collection the discs will remain largely untouched) and it's sharp enough with HDMI and upscaling, although it can be a bit choppy. Get a smoother picture on my PS2 through FreeMCBoot and OPL, connected with a component cable.

I can't justify a new laptop or PC. Just now. But the emulation business appeals to me. I do enjoy using my laptop/phone/tablet to emulate PS1 games as it is, but there's an urge to go bigger.
 
Today's experiment: putting to bed my PES3/WE7(I) confusion.

Played a bit of WE7, PES3 and WE7I (the US, Korean and Japanese versions).

My conclusion, gameplay-wise: WE7, PES, and the Korean and US versions of WE7I are all the same. The Japanese version of WE7I is the only one with differences to write home about, namely improved heading and the first appearance of the goalkeeper's ability to drop the ball (with, oddly, a better animation than any of its successors).

My confusion stems from me attempting to compile a 'hit list' for my collection and referring to PSX Data Center (sic), the PCSX2 Wiki and Wikipedia. Curiously, it seems that Japan got their new and improved WE7I two days after the US got their WE7I, which was pretty much PES3. A bit cruel on our American friends.

Anyway - as you were!
 
Something I often wondered but never bothered to find out/ask before, does anybody know why the US get WE versions and not PES versions?
 
It gets confusing, quickly. I'm pretty sure the US gets PES but as Winning Eleven. I need to get my head around PES4/WE8 next.

I believe PES4, WE8 (both Japan and Korea) and WE8I (US) are all the same.

Then Korea only gets their own WE8I, which I assume is an upgrade.

Then Japan gets WE8:LE, which I assume takes the improvements from the Korean WE8I, with online play.

AND both Japan and Korea get J.League and K.League versions, respectively!

I make the timeline:
  • 05/08/2004 - WE8 (Japan)
  • 19/08/2004 - WE8 (Korea)
  • 15/10/2004 - PES4 (Europe)
  • 18/11/2004 - J.League - Winning Eleven 8 - Asia Championship (Japan), K.League - Winning Eleven 8 - Asia Championship (Korea)
  • 01/02/2005 - World Soccer Winning Eleven 8 International (US)
  • 17/02/2005 - WE8I (Korea)
  • 24/03/2005 - WE8: Liveware Evolution (Japan)
I stand to be corrected on that!
 
It's almost like whatever build they are up to at the time gets released it would seem. On an interesting side note I noticed when rooting around the files in I think it was the ultimate editor for 2013 I found all the badges for the J League teams (and I think K League too, although I might be making that bit up). Makes me wonder if all the players are somewhere there in the database too.
 
mattmid said:
It's almost like whatever build they are up to at the time gets released it would seem. On an interesting side note I noticed when rooting around the files in I think it was the ultimate editor for 2013 I found all the badges for the J League teams (and I think K League too, although I might be making that bit up). Makes me wonder if all the players are somewhere there in the database too.
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I'd love to find option file editors for those J.League and K.League games. Have it in my head that I want to edit and play them all!
 
pes2013 2020-11-14 19-43-56-62.jpg

Advanced in my 2013 campaign and I'm in unknown territory . 5 games to go :JAY:

For now I've hold extremely well and did better than the usual probably also due to me switching to essentially a double dmf; curious to see if CPU will throw shenanigans at me in the very end tho, promotions used to be drama filled in the last matches of Ps2 era, I'm kinda prepared for the worst lol.
 
@Flipper the Priest I'm guessing the OF on those Japanese/Korean games will have their relevant countries text but if you were to do the relevant one that loads in the PES6 editor you could always export and translate the names in excel from the csv export. I think it's we9 that you can load in PES6 editor - you have to change the name to PES6 rather than the WExxx bit, but it loads fine. One of the guys who managed Spurs for a while in the manager youth league was from the US and only had WE9 (again, think it's that version or maybe 10?) and he did that with the league OF and it worked fine. So with the relevant Japanese/Korean version that might be possible.
 
mattmid said:
@Flipper the Priest I'm guessing the OF on those Japanese/Korean games will have their relevant countries text but if you were to do the relevant one that loads in the PES6 editor you could always export and translate the names in excel from the csv export. I think it's we9 that you can load in PES6 editor - you have to change the name to PES6 rather than the WExxx bit, but it loads fine. One of the guys who managed Spurs for a while in the manager youth league was from the US and only had WE9 (again, think it's that version or maybe 10?) and he did that with the league OF and it worked fine. So with the relevant Japanese/Korean version that might be possible.
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I'm sure (part of me wants to say I've tried it already with WE8LE) that the editors would work with the PES equivalents but the J.League and K.League games are totally different with with different teams. I'll need to do some testing!

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A noncanonical instalment of my Auld Enemy PK deep dive:



I didn't play Goal Storm until recently but it still gives me that buzz of nostalgia. Probably because it's typically of its time, when everything was nice and simple.
 
fam

I finished a season of ML in PES 5 today, got defaultpool to Premier League.

Won D2 Cup and 2nd in the league, shocking considering I only used a default team. Overall AI was pretty weak especially up front. One game, somehow Rangers beat me 3-0 and they were playing beautifully, wish every team could pass like them. What am happy with is points, AI was good with winning their games and it was quite the task to keep up.
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I think imma go into season 2 without transfers, just try my luck with defaults. I think I can be in Top 6. I can do it 🐑

Return to PES 5 very, very comfey so far. Was shocked to score 2 free kicks with Minanda this season, was absolutely screaming when Castolo was playing football and not sprinting for once, seriously! When he outran defenders and slotted one past Boruc against Celtic man I had to do a little dance. For the first time in 15 years I witnessed Castolo playing actual football!

Also missed two penalties in two separate games lol.

Man such a breathe of fresh air, good ol PES 5 🐑 loving it!!!!!!!
 
Fam I am back I played more today here my thoughts and considerations

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I was expecting I would power thru mid-table teams and be around top 6. Tons of 1-0s, couple draws, just now I got finally stopped by United oh god what a beast team! 1-2, but honestly such a dominant side that manchester team, we got one at the end but shoulda been 0-4 I'm tellin ya.

Now something that I've been thinking about for quite a while now.

Before United I played Chelsea and they were so trash. If not for moment of magic from Crespo's big argentine head we woulda won. Castolo & Co. were giving the blues run for their money.

There is something I have noticed with the stats long, long time ago. Teamwork. I do not understand why is it balanced the way it is, supposedly to make players distinct but I think it only ruins the, and consequently entire teams. Chelsea's overall TW was not bad, but after checking in Exhibition United's easily 5-10 TW higher on average.

One exception being Ronaldo. Yung Chris was like the worst player in the big red derby. It was high TW players like Giggs and Alan Smith (!) powering the team. Seriously some of the passes van Nisterlooy was getting were out of this world. I was being ripped apart left and centre. Not on the right though, right had CR7 with like 64 teamwork.

I know patches/ofs often tried to add +10-15 TW across the board, sometimes would just set everyone outright to 99. I have a different idea I want to test. I wanna set everyone's teamwork equal to their overall. You can easily get overalls on pesmaster. CR7 overall's 91 so he'd get 91 TW instead of fucken 60! It just paralyzes the player, pulls him out of play. I have noticed a lot of time AI just cannot utilize its best players. Tactics are good, so are ideas, but the execution is all over place, especially up front.

This would mean best teams with lots of high-rated players get lots of TW, hopefully making them stronger. Weaker teams I feel often get to ride on a couple high TW players and are consequently much stronger than usual.

Perhaps mentality and aggression should be the same? Not sure.

Also about special abilities/"stars" I remember reading somewhere that they actually indicate AI behaviour. So someone with "scoring" star actually simply takes more chances. Some global adjustments would perhaps make AI more direct? Especially up front, god is attacking AI bad. Shoutouts to United for saving the day and kicking my ass, I was worried I might run away with the title even...

Any input appreciated 🐑
 
@Saint Angelo That's an interesting idea about Teamwork. Well worth testing out I would think, although it may weaken the poor sides too much as teamwork is a key part for them to combat the lack of talent of their opponents. Definitely think it could be a good idea for the better teams though to make them tougher to play against.

This might be of help.

According to the PES 5 guide:

Mentality indicates a player's commitment and drive. When his stamina is low, a player with high mentality level will be much more likely to run and maintain his general level of dedication than a similarly exhausted player with a lower mentality rating.

Aggression: Dictates how likely a player is to run forward to join an attack. A player with a low aggression rating will be more inclined to stick to his assigned position.


Here's what the player abilities do/are.

DribblingCOM CONTROL: The player favours attempting to dribble into a goalscoring position
Tactical DribbleCOM CONTROL: The player favours dribbling whilst looking for a better placed team mate to pass to
PositioningPositions the player well when receiving passes and balls crossed into the goal area
ReactionAlthough there is an increased danger of being offside, the player advances more aggressively looking for more scoring opportunities
PlaymakingWhen in possession of the ball, all other team mates become more adept at receiving passes
PassingWhen in possession of the ball, a player receiving a pass will move with increased agility
ScoringCOM CONTROL: More likely to try an attempt at goal
ScoringPlayer becomes more adept at positioning and passes and goals become easier to make
1-1 ScoringEasier to score goals when 1-on-1 with the keeper
Post PlayerWhen in possession of the ball on the front lines, the player exerts an extra effort to keep the ball until a team mate is in a prime position to receive it
LinesImproves offence and defence along the offside line. Executes well-timed dashes
Middle ShootingBecomes easier to take shots a fair distance away
SideImprove play in the areas near the touchline
CentreImprove play in the central areas
PenaltiesEasier to score penalties
1 - Touch PassImproves accuracy of direct plays
OutsideMore accurate kicking with the outside of the foot
MarkingStays more tightly on the opponent being covered
Sliding TackleBetter sliding with less chance of committing a foul
CoveringBecomes more skilled at covering gaps in defence when an opponent breaks past a defender
D- Line ControlDefense line becomes more coordinated, making it easier to execute an offside trap
Penalty StopperImproved ability to stop penalty kicks
1-on-1 StopperThe keeper responds well to shots taken from close range, and is better at stopping balls in 1-on-1 situations
Long ThrowPlayer has longer than normal throw
 
mattmid said:
That's an interesting idea about Teamwork. Well worth testing out I would think, although it may weaken the poor sides too much as teamwork is a key part for them to combat the lack of talent of their opponents. Definitely think it could be a good idea for the better teams though to make them tougher to play against.
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And that's my goal exactly, to widen the gaps. If weaker teams are weak, then they are getting their ass beat. I can beat Fulham most of the time regardless. I want every game against top team to be a desperate struggle. Especially since PES 5/6 are not scripted, but legit games. Me chasing the title with default ass team is a red flag. I can win 1-0 20 times a year no biggie. If big AI teams can't beat me in our games high chance I'll get past them.

Real talk fam default team is 65 overall on average, how in tarnation are they meant to boss Chelsea and most PL except of Man Utd around. It's completely opposite of modern PES. In 2021 there's some konami magic going in the background that screws everything up and numbers don't matter. In PS2 PES numbers matter a lot, so much that one stat at the end of the list (teamwork) can screw the balance massively.

I think it was Phoenix 13/14(???) that got this sooooo right. I was playing either Malaga or Deportivo ML, and it was the height of Real-Barca duopoly. These two were so massively OP there was never more than one goal per game, usually for them in the first couple seasons. Was always checking calendar to see when do we meet again, those were the games I was legitimately waiting for. On top of that Rayo Vallecano was crazy OP for some reason in that Phoenix, literally third best Spanish team. And that was amazing Master League, there was an end-game boss, especially since Real-Barca would easily get 70+ points in 30 games.

And that's how it always ought to be in my opinion, it hurts so much seeing best players in the world struggle in AI hands, then u get your ass ripped apart by Dado Prso because he has correct parameters. What on earth 🐑

mattmid said:
According to the PES 5 guide:
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Fam u got a copy? Would gladly have a look.

And if that's how star abilities truly work then they should be re-distributed en-masse, especially the ones related to positioning on the pitch. Stats should not matter, since we are playing Master League most players will develop, some massively, so they would "deserve" their stats at some point anyway. Some teams are so dead movement-wise, both good and trash. Chelsea had zero movement, it was random counterattack and cross to Crespo that saved them otherwise there was just panic.

No wonder Giggs and Smith were doing my head in with a slew of star abilities and 82 twk each.

And on subject on teamwork and dead teams, my default team's teamworks went up by a fair amount, we in 70s now and it shows. Especially on counterattacks I'm 433 with 2 SS and CF. When Ordaz is pushing thru the middle Castolo and Hamsun will always make a good move and react to through pass, something which was rarely working at first and which drove me mad. Now top Euroteams with 90 tw, hell even 99 in some cases? Madness.

I will look into it got tons of free time these days.
 
PRO_TOO said:
so i was finally able to have a match in Winning Eleven 5 (PS2) on that windows macbook ( :SHHH: ) using a DS4!

the japanese commentary was such a relieve! :TU:

all i can say/ask for now is: what have they been doing for decades?! what!? :CONF:
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I love the Japanese commentary. SHŪTO!

For too long did I do PES/WE5 (and PES2/WE6, for that matter) a disservice. Thinking they were just Konami finding their feet on the PS2 I kinda overlooked them, but they're smashing games in their own right. Probably not for a Master League, but for a quick blast I think I'd pick them up over 4, 5 or 6. Don't @ me.
 
@Saint Angelo: If PES5 had even if just a decent attacking AI, no one would've had bought any other football game ever since. It'd be footballing heaven. That said, don't overlook PES5's ability to surprise you over time. Many pick up the game, experience the good and bad, but especially the weak attacking AI puts them off and then they give up on the title. I say, plow through. I'll give you an example: I've been playing World Cups with Latvia and China, both saves were very successful. Now, I started a ML with Parma and despite being by far the best team on the Division 2, I'm really struggling, both offensively and, shockingly, defensively too, despite the fact that I have a centreback duo with +80 Defense attributes each (certainly the best CB duo in this league). Why? Well, this is the question that made PES so great back then. It could be my formation, my tactics, the players not fitting in - because each one's statsheets don't really link up well with the others -...it is very complex. I wouldn't rule out, for example, the currently crappy Chelsea side on your ML to become fantastic after a signing or two, if the AI considers they need to replace faulty pieces on their starting-11. Not on PES5, but on PS2 PES2008, I remember Bayern's team had a very slow kind of buildup play; what do they do? They don't change formation, tactics, anything: they only buy a CMF, I believe Anita, who was a much more energetic type of player. Overnight, their football became electrifying to watch. One piece changed everything.

About Teamwork, if you want to mess around with stats, PES5 is always an excellent option; but keep in mind that the concept behind PES5 was one of providing a football simulation in which on any given day, any team could beat even the top sides, not through cheating but better tactics, "inspiration" (via form arrows) and, of course, some luck too. That bigger-team asphyxiating dominance you seek is much more prevalent on games like PES2, probably PES3 too. PES5 is not that kind of game. To me it's a "football feeling" simulator, one where unlike on every other football game I've played, the final result of a match doesn't really matter to me, not after experiencing that 15-min-greatness during the actual match.

Speaking of stats improvements, @mattmid's idea of assigning 99 Dribble Speed to everyone on PES6 would make even more sense on PES5, perhaps it could make the CPU harder to stop offensively.

This @Chenghis.Khan post might be helpful too...(his whole thread is a gem really):

Chenghis.Khan said:
Your English is fine dude!

I think the main point to understand about WE9LE attacking AI is....that it sucks. Unfortunately. I've tried for years and years to make the AI attack well and it never happened. Sometimes it can counter if you mess up but well worked goals from build up happen like once every 200 games. You can adjust style and effectiveness of attacks but only marginally and you'll never reach "good" territory. That being said I have the toughest games vs compact & disciplined opponents who pressure in a measured way that allows them to keep shape and then counter with extreme directness. If the AI plays fewer passes that means you get fewer chances to interrupt and counter-attack while they're in attacking transition and vulnerable. Roger Schmidt used to preach to his players to pass forward, not sideways because intercepted sideways passes lead to dangerous breaks.

So Simeone's Atletico has always been tough to play against. Roger Schmidt's Leverkusen sometimes is too, for them it's really matchup dependend. They excel at direct attacking (relative to other WE9 teams) and can really press well. If you find a way to break the press and play balls in behind though, you can send them home 4-0. And that last sentence is why the best teams who play the most dominant styles are usually some of the easiest to beat in WE9. The human player will always find ways to break the press and exploit the high line. It's much harder to find a solution vs Atletico's deep block and then also execute it.

Remember those teams we think of (Pep's Barca, Pep's Bayern, PSG, Cryuff's/Michel's Ajax, Del Bosque's Spain, etc.) usually played against inferior and thus defensively oriented opposition. They run into trouble when up against good teams that can contain them somewhat and also attack them back. (great article about Guardiola in CL knockouts). And guess hat? The human player ALWAYS represents that kinda opponent, so we're always the kryptonite of teams who want to dominate the ball and defend high. I can't remember a game in WE9 where I was the reactive side, I'm always the one dictating play and so teams that are naturally set up to counter this style like Atletico will do best against me, the player.
That's why I try to set up even 2011 Barca to be capable in direct attacks. They did not do that IRL because opponents sat deep and denied them space to attack into but I - the player - offer them that space.
If I was ultra realistic and set up every team not how they really played but how I think they would play against me then all(!) of them would look more like Atletico. It's a question of what I want to achieve and which compromise I'm happiest with.

To get back to your questions;
Counter-Attack A should always be better than B because it's more direct. I don't remember exactly why I have Milan at B, probably a style thing with them having so much playmaking and so little running in the side.

For defending, it entirely depends on what is in front of the back line. Back Line A always leaves space in behind so the attack & midfield must put constant pressure on the ball carrier. One slip up usually means a through ball and a scoring chance. Back Line B is more forgiving that way but can be pinned back near their own penalty box. I think Back Line B offers the lesser evil for AI teams as it's not as easy to expoit and easier to set up. When A works though, it can be a beauty.
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Vurnon Anita? this guy?? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vurnon_Anita

What a fucken supertalent, I had him on couple Master Leagues - I best remember PES 2009 - and he was absolutely insane. Now that's blast from the past, I loved this guy in PES. Pace for days!!!

Nah homie I getchu fully, my philosophy is I've been grinding PES 5/6 for 15 years now and I need Master League+ so I can keep playing for more than 3-4 seasons. I think Teamwork editing would only be the start. I want the best players to play to the best of their potential. I know me and United will grind AI to the dust throughout the season and its the games between us that will decide. And I don't want my AI competitor to fold over and let me waltz into the hall of fame like that.

I had great AI opponents in the past. I had seasons with 80 points in 30 games and second, once even third place in the league. I need this to keep me going fam. I want the big games to be the big games. Not the way PES 15-21 does it by paralyzing either side and let other win in "dramatic, shocking, exciting" bullshit manner.

Will never forget when my PES 3 Commonwealth got stopped in Champions League final by fucken Peleponissos and goddamn Giovani, they were better, they were so much better, and without those better teams in key moments Master League is just a steamroll. If Blackburn beats me in one league game - no worries I can win 10 other league games. If Arsenal beats me in title decider or Barcelona in CL now that is a stuff of dreams!

I was told about dribble speed a couple times but I'll start with TWK and special abilities. I am fairly certain it won't make them invincible. I just need me some quality end game bosses. I did a quick test this morning - set Arsenal and United's TWKs according to overalls and played one exhibition each with my Liverpool. Sample size 2 but well:

-Arsenal was shocking with how they were always finding Henry, perhaps bc 96 TWK? But man was getting insane service. Long balls, through balls, they were looking for him all the time. And he delivered twice coz its Henry. Was fairly wonderful.
-With United I wanted to see Ronaldo do more (60 TWK up to 91!) and he was visible but hasn't done terribly much. Van Nisterlooy got some great passes as well, I saw lots of great movement from both wingers.
-I wonder if high TWK is indicator for AI players to choose who to pass to. Henry scored goal number 1 after 40 yard long ball from Pires, had no problem pushing default defenders around. Was fairly amazed.
-Could be placebo but the sass and confidence of some AI players is insane. They will stop mid-pitch and wait for u to make a move. Crazy long balls, pin-point through balls from the deep. If not for a radar I would be screwed fam. It needs more testing but the message I've gotten from both teams was confidence. Not afraid of playing risky balls, not afraid of utilizing talent up front. Refreshing, compared to watching Blackburn and Bolton trying to hopelessly build something and get interruped all the time (like to post you've quited describes it, exactly like that).

I will test with a couple good and bad teams for a few days see what I can do.
 
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Pes 5/WE9 is such a pure footballing experience. It's almost inevitable, the sooner or the later, to keep on retaking it, if you are in retro titles at all.

Lately among the other games I was playing on and off Winning Eleven 9 + Chenghis OF (tactis, global stats editing etc.) and Kingsley exe; I think overall it's a fantastic experience and a nice advancement in terms of AI. I'm doing a League with mostly classic teams, me being 1999 Man U, and between the above additions and the ruthless stamina I'm having a super hard time keeping clean sheets. In the last game against 95 Ajax I was losing, managed to draw and then they pressed me like crazy in my own half, scoring the winner from a corner kick.

As I think I already said in the past, I look at Pes 5 as a giant sandbox game. Stats are so prominent that even if attacking AI isn't as good as in the other chapters, you can still have a challenging experience in that regard by a good number of separated, or even mixed (if you are up to it) things.. first that came into my head: bad cbs, an high defensive line (maybe with manual offside in the mix), a short roster, global editing.. you just have to work a little, but the reward is immense. I remember in a past ML I used to play with a super high line, taking a lot of goals.. in particular, a player became my nightmare: the mythological Bamogo, a forward with the "lines" star ability who develops incredible stats in a few years (surprised I can't remember seen him mentioned here, sometimes to me he perhaps felt like the best forward of the game, but I guess it just speaks volume about the wonders of Pes 5 roster) and that used to beat my defense every.single.time I had to play against him. It created a nice back story to that ML because I was both trying to not make him score in the direct matches against me and at the same time to contend him the top scorer title of the league with my forward, cause he always was the one to beat for that too.

Playing as Man U also lead me to another reflection. I was watching a youtuber, recently, play My Club on the latest iteration, and it striked me how good Beckham does look, both in general movements and in looks.
But controlling the same player in WE9.. it feel SO much like him, despite the fact he doesn't have some personal motion thing (except, of course, the iconic set pieces one). The confidence you have when you take a cross, a corner or a free kick that it's "him", while at the same time the outcome isn't set in stone to be a certain success, is truly something else.

How much I wished in this recent years that "player id" was this concept pushed to the extremes, rather than just, mostly, a copy paste of animations..
 
This discussion about pes 5 is very interesting.
I play five stars level and prefer it at the next level because the cpu seems to me more varied and capable of reasoning, and overall I have never found it too simple.
I'm in the third ML season and I'm about to win my first trophy.
I love this game because you can experience many games within one game.
The duels between attackers and defenders, the fight in midfield, the entry of a player rested during the match in progress, the difference in quality between one player and another.
All tangible things.
This game never bores me :))
 
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