WEPES2007 / PES6 Vs. UEFA Champions League

matiasjuarez

Matheoux
23 September 2005
Buenos Aires, Argentina
River Plate
Last night I downloaded the demo on the upcoming UEFA
Champions League Game by EA, altough I admit I never really liked EA Fifa's, I must say that I was surprised by this one. EA is getting closer and closer to WE playability with each release and that uncontrolable filling of the players I had with FIFA07 is gone. I don't know, may be my dissapointment on last XBOX360 WE game is screwing my judgment but I think this will be the first EA soccer game I'll play. So let me know what you think.
 

Trev

Non-League
4 February 2006
Thought the demo was crap tbh.

Zoooooooooooomed out camera, really poor goal nets, no way to change controls and piss poor player likeness.

Played ok and had good comentary - but Pro Evo is better.
 

Chris Davies

Chief PESsimist
Staff
14 May 2003
Tranmere Rovers
To repeat what I said in the UEFA thread...

I personally think the PES engine is made to look totally outdated by the FIFA engine (I tried playing PES again the other day and the stiffness of play, the way that half of my passes go to the wrong player and the fact that the game is the same game it was six years ago at it's core). I personally won't be playing PES again in the near future. Whatever you tell me about the game being realistic, I totally disagree and think that FIFA/UEFA, with it's free passing system, is the most realistic football game to date. I just don't have fun with PES any more; as soon as I play it, I want to hurl the pad through the screen and snap the disc. The players pass at 1mph allowing the ball to be intercepted constantly, two or three players seem to run to the same place all the time leaving you wide open... The CPU decides whether you win or lose, basically. The game was innovative and fresh six years ago. Now I just laugh at it. Seabass was great with a PSone but give him more power and he doesn't have a clue.

As for the "no satisfaction when scoring in FIFA" thing... It's been said before that the reason you feel like screaming and shouting when you score in PES is because you beat the cheat; you did the impossible. The CPU threw everything at you, including making every one of your tackles bounce the ball to the opposition, making the ball travel through a player's chest (seen it so many times), never getting a card for the worst tackles you've ever seen, and the goalkeeper developing a rocket in his arse to save something a mile away from him. If it does all that and you still score, then fuck, you're going to be over the moon! In FIFA/UEFA, the opposition is human. Watch the goalkeepers in PES and FIFA's training modes. In FIFA, if you knock the ball out of his reach, he can't reach it and you score. In PES, that's not the case; your shot goes straight to the goalkeeper's hands so often, it's unreal, and if you do knock it out of his reach, he will speed up and save it anyway... It's almost as if you have to have ten shots before it will let you score one (how anybody thinks this is realistic is beyond me). So, obviously, it's more satisfying to do the impossible on PES than it is to beat a realistic defence and goalkeeper on FIFA.

However, there are a few fundamentals in FIFA/UEFA that seem to be iffy. There is a lag in PES's controls, but in FIFA it's even longer. I don't mind that so much, in a sense it's realistic that if you're running at full-speed it's going to take a second to stop fully and play the ball, and if you let go of sprint the response time does improve. But the things I do mind are the heading system, which is just abysmal, and the fact that the referee still blows for fouls when you use a stab-tackle and get the ball, which is just ridiculous. Fair enough, real referees make mistakes, but I've took the ball plenty of times without touching the opposition player FULL-STOP and had a foul given for it.

Plus, I noticed today that through-balls are still ludicrously effective, which effectively ruins multiplay and online play, and ruins all of the hard work that EA have put in everywhere else. :(

I love FIFA's little touches, such as the player runs button. Without that, I'm lost. In PES, players just don't make realistic runs. As I said above, two or three run to the same place, and I'm sorry, but they don't in FIFA. The cards system is stupid, yeah, but as long as you're not forced to use it (which I'm sure you won't, as it's only for Ultimate Team mode).

Overall, I'm looking forward to the game a lot, as I have a lot of fun with it. But it's a shame that there's still a few issues with it. I mainly play offline, and so I know I'll enjoy it, but I think online will be wrecked by the through-ball gang. So (before you flame me), I can see why the majority of PES fans won't be won over. However, personally, if I don't play UEFA, then I won't be playing any other football games this year bar FIFA 08 (and no, that's not an idle threat, seeing as the last time I played more than one game on PES6 was on it's day of release).
 
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Miro

Banned
10 September 2003
PES is getting worse year by year , thats true. But best arcade football u can play today is PES6. Best Fifa arcade ´for me is PES6.
 
E

El Diego

Guest
I don't think so, Jack's points are very valid. I have LOVED PES for years and have bought EVERY title. Lets be honest, PES6 is shit. It's slow, cumbersome and boring. It's a stripped down version of "what could have been" and it's getting damn boring too.

UEFA Champs League is a breath of fresh air and I for one will be buying it.
 
D

djdoc

Guest
I agree with both El Diego and JB on this one. PES has stifled and become so poor its untrue. If anything FIFA 07 and UEFA CL have opened up my eyes to how stiff and on-rails PES6 is.

Dj
 

Coopz

Retired Footballer
27 April 2002
yeah it is really really stiff compared to fifa

have a go at defending on fifa and u will see how free it is compared to the super cancel pes
 

world`soccer

Banned
23 April 2006
In The Heart oF SocceR
Arsenal
thats right i liked fifa 07 too much i keep playin it all the time but there is something i like to know why there is no tricks at all for the players ? i`ve tried alot and i had no chance to do any trick with the pall i mean the 360 turn and ronaldinho tricks so is secret or hard to do ? and i will not going to buy UEFA Champions League if its same fifa 07 but with little change i mean from the demo any new tricks ? new gameplay !? plz tell me
 

Chris Davies

Chief PESsimist
Staff
14 May 2003
Tranmere Rovers
UEFA gives you more control over player movement (players now don't have to stand still when you pass to them - you can move them with your stick). You can now pass a lot easier, nice and slowly to play possession or extra, extra fast in a Spanish style. Goalkeepers are a lot better now. Referees are much improved (but still reach for a red card way too quickly sometimes).

There's only a few changes but they make a world of difference.

As for tricks, they are in the game but they're VERY hard to do. I discovered one by accident the other day (if you press e.g. top left and then press sprint and bottom left, the player will feint one way and go the other - I don't know if I've described it properly because I'm having trouble doing it again, but there are so many tricks in the game, you just have to work really hard to find out how to do them).
 

Coopz

Retired Footballer
27 April 2002
theres tricks???

i always thought there were none, maybe theres a site that lists them all?

im gonna find out

edit: fuck me what a goal from Sheva on BBC 1
 

Chris Davies

Chief PESsimist
Staff
14 May 2003
Tranmere Rovers
There's a list of FIFA 07 360 tricks around somewhere (I'll edit this post when I find it), but it's not the full list as there's so many. EA call it "context sensitive", as in there's so many that can be done, but the majority of the hidden ones can only be done in certain circumstances (i.e. the ball has to be a foot in-front of you, a foot to the side etc).

EDIT: Here's the details on the tricks in FIFA 07 and UEFA CL (360)...

EA SPORTS said:
Skill moves

In FIFA 07 on XBOX 360, dribbling will enable you to trigger skill moves and beat defending players.

Brutal Stop: By pressing the RT or RB button without giving any direction with the left stick, the player abruptly stops. This helps keep control of the ball and unbalance the defender by abruptly changing the pace. RT makes the player stop and maintain the direction they were originally travelling. RB makes the player stop automatically face the opponent goal.

Change Lane: Release the direction control and turn 90 degree left or right as the player is slowing down. This is best employed when a defending player is approaching the player in possession from directly ahead at pace and with a little bit of space between the two players.

Knock On: Tapping the right analog stick while dribbling the gamer will be able to knock the ball into space. This move is best used on the Counter Attack or when a defending player is about to tackle to either unbalance the opponent and beat them or draw a foul.

Stop and Go: Hold the sprint button and release the left stick while dribbling and the player will briefly stop. Move in the original direction again with the left analog stick and the player will perform a Stop and Go as he will move on sprinting again.

Feint: In the middle of a 45 degree turn, use the right analog stick to flick the ball in another 45 degree direction [View Quicktime Video]. This is difficult to perform but is very effective to dribble past an opponent.

Context Skill Moves: In FIFA 07 on XBOX 360, the fact that the ball is completely independent enables the gamer to perform a myriad of unique and unscripted skill moves based on context (the player attributes, the position of the ball and the gamer input) of any given situation.

For example, the ball could be chipped over the head of the receiving player or he could juggle the ball several times after performing a successful trap. The more you play the more you will be able to see and reproduce those unique and exciting moves.
And to quote Kevano:

kevano22 said:
Ive done a step over with malouda, its all about using the pace control as well as your LAS to move your player. They will do feints and dummys etc.

Also, when you chest a ball, or head it to control it, or basically if the ball is bouncing over knee height, flick the trick stick in the opposite direction and if your player is good enough, he will attempt to flick it over the opponents head. Ive not managed to sucessfully pull this move off yet, but if you did it, it would look absolutley stunning.
 
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Coopz

Retired Footballer
27 April 2002
i think i know the ones you mean, there on the main fifa site only about 4 of them though like changing lanes whatever that means
 

Chris Davies

Chief PESsimist
Staff
14 May 2003
Tranmere Rovers
You can still do tricks on the 360, even without a trickstick. See four posts above.
 

world`soccer

Banned
23 April 2006
In The Heart oF SocceR
Arsenal
i`ve try them they are not working :/ at all
and really hard to do !! like the player dance with the ball to do one trick !! i wish it will be like the pc Version its easy to use and effective in the gameplay like winning eleven series i dont know why they remove this skills damn EA !!
 

Trance_Allstar

I love lamp
18 March 2006
Sweden
You can still do tricks on the 360, even without a trickstick. See four posts above.

Hey mate. ;)

I have no doubt that you can, just wondered if they had implemented the trickstick yet in EA's sports games (I thought they had gotten it implemented in the 360 games by now since FIFA07 was a bit rushed and lacked a few features I figured they would get to implementing rather soon, including the Trickstick), or if you "only" have the left stick to do different things with (I say only since after all that is basically how you do all tricks in PES, so not really a loss compared anyways). :)
 

Chris Davies

Chief PESsimist
Staff
14 May 2003
Tranmere Rovers
At first I was confused as to why they hadn't made the right-stick a trickstick (on the 360 it's a knock-in-this-direction stick, which is great but I barely use it because you can't control how hard you kick it). But now I actually like how it takes more hard work to pull something off; A) it gives you a sense of achievement and B) I'd like to think it's slightly more realistic.

But anyway, I'm pretty sure the tricks in FIFA 07 (PC) are valid in UEFA CL (PC), as you asked. It's only had a gameplay tweak, the controls are the same otherwise (apart from the new "quick set play" control, which is missing from the 360 version and that kills me because it sounds great to be able to do quick free-kicks, quick throw-ins and even quick goal-kicks - why the hell current-gen seems to get the best features before next-gen beats me).
 

Trance_Allstar

I love lamp
18 March 2006
Sweden
Quick reply hehe.

I agree that a trickstick sometimes can make things a bit too easy or convenient.

The reason I like a trickstick is because PES has made a habit of making simple things in real-life hard to do in the game.

To PES's case, they have made the drop-shoulder move easier to do by removing the timing window and allowing you do do the stick move at any point within the "step" and have the player perform it. The 2-foot feint is also easy to do.

But pulling off something like the Matthews feint in a match is hard as hell. I use the analog stick aswell (no digital pad here), and getting that one to be quick enough is almost impossible. Usually my player will just waltz right into an opponent instead of feinting them.

So a trickstick to me is very wanted, although I would very much like to see KONAMI and EA putting a bit more flair into it, maybe by making you time the different stick moves fairly well in order to pull a trick off (and better players like Ronnie could have more liberal timings making them easier to do tricks with).


Or, even better, they could make the trick stick on first touch have different "building blocks" on each direction.

For example, when you run with the ball and flick the stick downwards, that triggers an overstep. If you then flick the stick in another direction, that will make the overstep merge into another move like a matthews feint while running.

Or pull the stick first downwards to trigger the overstep, then in another direction to trigger a flip-flap immediately following the overstep.

I think you get the idea. Instead of having a complete move if you pull the stick upwards, have one move occur on the first stick flick, then once that is performed there is a whole new set of things that the first move can blend into, and more after that etc.

You can also keep combinations as a first move (for example flicking the stick "up-then-down" will initiate an overstep to the left, whilst "down-then-up" will do it in the opposite side. That way you can choose direction of certain first touches like body feints or oversteps, after which you can do other things.

Or pulling the stick "left-then-rotate to up" will make the player drag the ball with him to the left.


That should create a very fluid system and one that people would explore forever.

For example, pulling the stick "up-then-down" for an overstep (first move), then doing another move followed by another and another. The combinations are endless if the game designers are willing to dig through all possible moves performed by skilled footballers over the years. A system like that I would like to see, because that goves you a real way to build your feints yourself.


Also, just to make sure, I was wondering if the trickstick from FIFA07 (PC) was now in UEFA CL (X360). But from your response I gather that there still is no trickstick in X360 UEFA CL. :)
 
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Chris Davies

Chief PESsimist
Staff
14 May 2003
Tranmere Rovers
The quick response is due to the fact that I have no life, my friend; I have two programs open all day on this PC, Photoshop and Firefox displaying Evo-Web, and when I get stuck on one I'll open up the other and see what's new...!

I think your ideas for future tricksticks are spot on - it would be great to have a system whereby you can build on what you know, and create your own little trademark patterns of movement. It would also be nice to have all of the tricks "nailed down" to one control aspect, meaning that if you accidentally press a back button and another button, you don't end up doing a triple-reverse-flipflap or something. But to confirm the answer to your question which I misread before (apologies), the 360 version of UEFA CL has the same controller layout as before; no trickstick yet.
 

Trance_Allstar

I love lamp
18 March 2006
Sweden
People with no lives are always the most helpful. ;)

I guess the trickstick will appear again in FIFA08. Hopefully new and improved? :)


Also, think about the combinations you could do if you incorporate the R2-button into the trickstick. You could use it as a modulator for certain tricks (pulling down on the trick stick and holding R2+down would do 2 different things).

PES6 has a new feature where holding R2 makes the player slow to a slow walk. At slow enough speeds, R2+trickstick could mean doing overhead flips (laying the ball up on your heel and then flicking it from your back over your head and over the opponent). Or other little things only doable when walking slowly or standing still.

By "control aspect" are you referring to the the trickstick being
fixed in direction no matter where the player is facing? I thought of that and it wouldn't be a good idea to change it according to where the player is facing. Not only since full analog movement (hopefully) in future games could make directions hard to tell in some situations where you are not sure whether your player is facing right or right-up, but also since you have to think of directionality with yourself. No matter where you are facing, if you hold the controller in your hands, pulling a stick upwards will always be pulling it away from you, and pulling the stick to the right will be to the right of you. So even if the player on the screen is facing to the left, if you want to do an overstep to the players right, you should move the stick on the controller to YOUR right, not the on-screen players' right. That will also help playing with different cameras and such.
Might be a bit hard at first to get used to (if you see your player getting attacked and you want him to get out of a tight spot, you might be inclined to press the stick to direction on the screen rather than the direction of the player seen from the players own eyes (for example, pressing "up" based on the players position and direction on the screen, rather than pressing the direction as seen from directly behind the player or through his eyes). You get the idea, long reduntant explanation for clarity. :)

Sometimes I am just bubbling over with ideas and I can sort of see how cool they would be if implemented, and how they would benefit gameplay. Too bad I don't have a direct-line to KONAMI HQ. I get a bit frustrated when they add one new feint per game. :)
 

Chris Davies

Chief PESsimist
Staff
14 May 2003
Tranmere Rovers
Yeah, hopefully FIFA 08 will see the return of the trickstick - I think there's a few people who would give the game a serious go then, rather than playing it for two seconds and switching it off.

By "control aspect" I meant that there would be only one place on the pad that you used to perform tricks - I don't like the whole "combo" idea that's used in football games at the moment as if they're fighting games. There's several times where I've tried to do a normal run and because I've accidentally tapped a button my player does something that results in him losing the ball. If you only used the trickstick to perform tricks (without having to hold anything down), then that wouldn't happen, if you see what I mean.

Get an email together with all your ideas and bombard Konami with them - they probably won't listen but it's worth a shot! A good idea is a good idea, and you never know when someone will read something you've written and think "we should do that". I've had no luck so far begging for lower-league teams but you have to try, don't you?! ;)
 

Trance_Allstar

I love lamp
18 March 2006
Sweden
Yeah, hopefully FIFA 08 will see the return of the trickstick - I think there's a few people who would give the game a serious go then, rather than playing it for two seconds and switching it off.

By "control aspect" I meant that there would be only one place on the pad that you used to perform tricks - I don't like the whole "combo" idea that's used in football games at the moment as if they're fighting games. There's several times where I've tried to do a normal run and because I've accidentally tapped a button my player does something that results in him losing the ball. If you only used the trickstick to perform tricks (without having to hold anything down), then that wouldn't happen, if you see what I mean.

Get an email together with all your ideas and bombard Konami with them - they probably won't listen but it's worth a shot! A good idea is a good idea, and you never know when someone will read something you've written and think "we should do that". I've had no luck so far begging for lower-league teams but you have to try, don't you?! ;)
Then I see. And I can agree with that. perhaps using the R2 isn't necessary in that case (or atleast you wouldn't use it in bombos with the trickstick, you use the trickstick while holding R2, which is a much simpler premise and idea). On the other hand, removing PES6 tricks from the left stick (2-foot feint, Matthews feint etc) might actually make things simpler. No worries doing body feints when you don't want them etc.

Maybe I should compile things in a big file and bomb them. :)
I don't like rigid players and gameplay, especially in soccer which is a very technical sport with lots of little aspects that is very important to capture.

Playing PES5 makes you realize it is lacking. You basically only pass and pass till you can shoot. The 8-way lob passes and autoaimed normal passes doesn't make things better. In this aspect FIFa is better. I would also like "tilt/angle of left stick" control over the height of lob passes.

Nice shooting some ideas your way. And thanks for the info on UEFA on 360. :)

Not leaving right now, but wanted to say it. ;)
 

Chris Davies

Chief PESsimist
Staff
14 May 2003
Tranmere Rovers
I'm against the rigid gameplay as well, which is why I've been playing FIFA/UEFA more and more. Your movement is so much more free - but I will admit that when it comes to dribbling, you can't exactly move "precisely" (well, you can, but it takes a lot of practice and knowing that you have to press the button a second before you actually want to do the move you're planning). However, it's no better on PES from what I can see; after playing UEFA and playing PES again, it is like going from the year 2007 to 2000 - from human to robotic.

But I'm rambling on again... I'll be getting banned from here soon I'm sure, haha. I totally agree with everything you say about tricks and the trickstick. I hope that Konami (and EA) stand up and take notice of suggestions like yours, rather than ignore them and go with their own crackpot ideas like they usually do.
 
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