Winning Eleven 10 (PS3/Xbox 360)

I remember discussing in the past with mates about the possibilities with 11 v 11. On-line leagues could start up and you could be signed up by a team to play in a particular position, so you'd always have 11 v 11 guys trying to play properly rather than a bunch of wreckers. Of course, you can let your imagination run away and start dreaming of having national on-line leagues, European leagues, Champ's League, etc, and even the honour of being picked to play for your national team in the World Cup, etc.

One thing they would have to sort out is a decent camera system. In the existing fixed-player mode, you have the option of a camera which follows the ball(which means your guy is off the screen much of the time, so you have to follow his dot on the radar, which ain't too great). Alternatively, you can have player cam which follows your guy, but then you can't see the action around the ball much of the time, so you don't really know what's happening.

You almost need 2 windows, one centred on your guy and one centred on the action. I think it would be interesting to discuss the possible solutions to this problem.
 
With the added power of next-gen consoles,
I hope they could make the game even more life-like:
- Much improved AI (CPU teams playing differently)
- better graphics (photo-realism)
- ALL major licensed leagues, teams
- Many more stadia
- Even better and varied nets
- More celebrations
- A revamped life-like ML.
 
I just wish a bigger number of teams and that they are all licensed, better graphics, better gameplay, more skill moves like keep ups and stadiums and leagues licensed too!
 
Analog control should not be included. That will bump up the learning curve too much and may alienate a segment of the pick up and play market. Its difficult and its messy and only will be enjoyed by pro players. And having choice between full analaog and normal control is a waste of time. Coding 2 separate schemes. I shudder to think how many misplaced passes there might be.


Licences, should be the priority. But I don't expect EPL just yet. Probabaly Bundesliga or Ligue1 first.

Editing
Since lincences are not expected to be perfect Konami should provide the following additional in-game editors.

Ball Editor. Allow you to create and store your own balls.

Sponsor Editor. Allow to create and store logo templates.

Kit Maker Editor. Allow to create and store logo templates.

Adboard /Banner Editor. Allow to create and store own adboards. Also a function to allow applying of these adboards to specific stadia.

Pitch editor. Allow to change the grass pattern/texture pallette.

Stadium Editor. Allow to create and store your own stadiums. This screen can apply the Adboards & pitches already created. Also allow to seelct net type and shape.

Allow editing of refrees and ref kits.

Control

Fix the cursor change problem.

Use the PSP method. Instead of having both D-pad and analog control schemes active; force the user to choose. Either D-pad or Analog. The freed up control can be used to store additional strategy/formations or skill moves.

Make use of all buttons. Allow users to store 3 preset set plays. Can switch between this using the 'select' button.

Only have 1 type of stepover. Code another skill move to the other button being used for stepovers.

Gameplay

Just need a bit tweaking for better offensive and defensive teammate AI. Make the shooting absolutely manual.
Tweak the shot gauge. It's too fast.
Tone down the long range shooting success rate.
Attack defence arrows. Allow directions for defensive, and allow varing lengths for offensive.
Better camera angles.
Put an proper aggressiveness stat, and allow make sure CPU getys carded just as realistically as human players do.

Instead of looking at unrealistic (IMO) 11 v 11 online. More efforts must be put in revamping the ML. Like EA, allow signing of sponsors and non playing staff. Allow manager offers from other clubs. Allow more realistic negotiations with inclusion of goal/assist/clean sheet bonuses.
Even if there are no full licenses, create a full 2nd or 3rd division. (not 8 teams ..please).

Add teams to the game, but never ever drop teams. I would probably like to see about 150+ national teams and 200+ club sides. Include Japanese, Korean, and Middle East club sides. More Eastern European club sides too.
Bring back more S.American teams, like Flamengo, Sau Paulo, Palmeiras, Santos, River Plate, Boca jrs,Banfield, Nacional etc Some mexican, urugayan, columbian top teams, plus a few MLS teams for variety.

Thats all I can think of right now.

Cheers
 
xbox 360 aint region free is it?, meaning there no way were gonna import we10, just gonna wait until pes6 (which i hope is out oct time and not delayed to catch the ps3 release (which i doubt will even make christmas 2006)
 
gotta say don't think 11 v 11 will work , people will not stay n position, who is going to go in goals etc, it will be like mini league football with people all trying to get on the ball and take everyone on...

I would prefer he uses the extra power for atmospherics like chants etc and real pitch textures than worrying about 22 people being online in 1 game.
 
stumpy_uk said:
gotta say don't think 11 v 11 will work , people will not stay n position, who is going to go in goals etc, it will be like mini league football with people all trying to get on the ball and take everyone on...

I would prefer he uses the extra power for atmospherics like chants etc and real pitch textures than worrying about 22 people being online in 1 game.
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what about having the PSP view the ball camera?

jiwa: analog should not be included? i guess you havent played Football Kingdom yet, right? If there is something alienating pick up play users its exactly the anolog movement cause its so damn unrealistic and totally takes out the one thing that makes soccer so fun: the freedom to do anything u like.

ye FK might be a bit chaotic but that because the gameplay is much faster.
 
jiwa said:
Analog control should not be included. That will bump up the learning curve too much and may alienate a segment of the pick up and play market.

More efforts must be put in revamping the ML. Like EA, allow signing of sponsors and non playing staff. Allow manager offers from other clubs. Allow more realistic negotiations with inclusion of goal/assist/clean sheet bonuses.
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Well, I don't see that having to mess about with boring stuff like signing sponsors and getting bogged down in dull negotiations is going to be more appealing to the pick-up-and-play market than having properly implemented full analogue control. I simply don't buy any argument about the current scripted system being a better gameplay experience. Why would analogue make it be so hard for people to aim in the direction they wish to pass?

Personally, I think Konami's main problem with full analogue is in creating sufficiently challenging AI which can handle the play of a human who would now have much fuller control of his moves, instead of the current scrpited system where the cpu decides to conveniently misplace and under or overhit passes/shots in order to stop you wiping the floor with them.

I agree the ML is need of a revamp, the main requirement being better league structures to help create excitement in seeing your team progress up the divisions from low beginnings. I would wish for an option to by-pass all the negotations stuff as much as possible.
 
I'm not sure digital control means more scripted play is necessary. I agree over the years the game has felt 'less free' than it did years ago say for example with ISS Pro 2/WE4, and that version like all the rest was 8-way digital and not analogue. But maybe that's just nostalgia kicking in.

11vs11 is hugely appealing if they can get it working, the possibilities are massive with such a mode. You would have Winning Eleven/Pro Evo clans, much the same way FPS' have now. You could mould yourself into the best left-back in the virtual world, time your runs forward and become positionally aware of where you should be. Then you could shit yourself as the day approaches when you have to play another clan who have some awesome sonofabitch playing right-wing for them. You could try to injure him early doors, and then another player controlled by someone else would have to replace him as a sub, or you could get sent off and watch him run ragged in the space you should be. It would be amazing.
 
I'll pick up from Jiwa

Graphics

- 3D grass/snow, that flattens when trodden on and rises shortly after.
- 3D crowd, some wearing team kits, some with scarves, with individual animations.
- Kits that look soft, flow and bounce.
- Hair that moves even if short, flattens and shines when wet.
- Real time shadows, shadows cast on player bodies either from themselves or other players.
- Advertisement boards for certain stadiums that revolve or are electronic.
 
ClassicD said:
I'm not sure digital control means more scripted play is necessary. I agree over the years the game has felt 'less free' than it did years ago say for example with ISS Pro 2/WE4, and that version like all the rest was 8-way digital and not analogue. But maybe that's just nostalgia kicking in.

11vs11 is hugely appealing if they can get it working, the possibilities are massive with such a mode. You would have Winning Eleven/Pro Evo clans, much the same way FPS' have now. You could mould yourself into the best left-back in the virtual world, time your runs forward and become positionally aware of where you should be. Then you could shit yourself as the day approaches when you have to play another clan who have some awesome sonofabitch playing right-wing for them. You could try to injure him early doors, and then another player controlled by someone else would have to replace him as a sub, or you could get sent off and watch him run ragged in the space you should be. It would be amazing.
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Who on earth would want to hone their skills as left back though, seriously.

IMO its a crap idea that would never work because there is no way you would find 22 people who were happy enough and disciplined enough to take one position througout the whole game.

If they spend time developing this, time that could be spent bettering the actual game then I wont be too impressed.
 
Thats why there would be this special option called "Not playing the match if you dont like that position".

Some people would like to play in one position. I usually play 8 player games on PES4 with my mates where its 4 vs 4. And its almost impossible to string 2 passes by yourself. And its kinda cool cuz its all about developing team work rather than your individual skills. Plus theres already a fixed cursor option in PES games anyway. This would just be the same except that the other CPU players are now humans.
 
johan said:
Why would Seabass announce this crap ?? If I was him I`d get full license for all the national and club teams so our patch makers can rest their brains a little bit. I`m sure KONAMI do have the power and money to get all the licenses that are needed to complete the game but instead they are doing some fancy, shmancy 11vs11 that will never work like Kezz said.
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I'll stop playing WE/PES the day they go for licences above gameplay.

This movement to 'making it look real'* over gameplay is the single biggest detriment to the latest video games and one that continually put money in the pockets of EA despite their sub standard games and focus on drawing people in for a quick fix.


* it's not as if the requests so far for 'making it look real' are much over and above simple sponsorship licencing. I'd like to see better faces (expression), head turning, better clothes, better pitches, lighting, 360 movement but a corperate sponsor on a shirt?... GET TO F**K
 
Yeah I myself enjoy 8 player a fair bit but at no point in time do you even consider staying in one position all game.

I understand the draw for 11 v 11 its just totally unfeasable to think it would work out like a proper game of football, more like British Bulldog.
 
P-dogg said:
Who on earth would want to hone their skills as left back though, seriously.

IMO its a crap idea that would never work because there is no way you would find 22 people who were happy enough and disciplined enough to take one position througout the whole game.

If they spend time developing this, time that could be spent bettering the actual game then I wont be too impressed.
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I would.

Obviously you're going to have a clamour for positions as 10,000,000 Maradona-wannabees appear, but some folk like doing a job as part of a team. There will be an abundance of people who will play as part of a team and those teams who play more seriously will have players for every position - they won't just have someone in at left-back because the attacking slots are used, they'll have someone there who will always play left-back.

The numbers won't be a problem, there are more than enough folk who'd be willing to play. Some folk get as much enjoyment out of shutting out a striker or marking a dangerous winger out of the game as others do from slamming one into the onion bag, seriously.

Just think about it, you could have man of the match awards decided by votes from all who took part in the game, etc.

I really wish they hadn't said this feature was what they'd eventually like to do as I now want it more than ever!
 
winston said:
Well, I don't see that having to mess about with boring stuff like signing sponsors and getting bogged down in dull negotiations is going to be more appealing to the pick-up-and-play market than having properly implemented full analogue control. I simply don't buy any argument about the current scripted system being a better gameplay experience. Why would analogue make it be so hard for people to aim in the direction they wish to pass?

Personally, I think Konami's main problem with full analogue is in creating sufficiently challenging AI which can handle the play of a human who would now have much fuller control of his moves, instead of the current scrpited system where the cpu decides to conveniently misplace and under or overhit passes/shots in order to stop you wiping the floor with them.

I agree the ML is need of a revamp, the main requirement being better league structures to help create excitement in seeing your team progress up the divisions from low beginnings. I would wish for an option to by-pass all the negotations stuff as much as possible.
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Totally agree.
 
I'd really suggest some people to pick up some of the older versions and compare the control and so over passing, dribbling and such. It isnt nostalgia. The older versions were less scripted and overall had ALOT better control. The control in we9/PES5 is horrendous, poor response and making quick turns is impossible.

Its funny that, when iss pro first came about, even then, digital control was rather dated among all them bunch of sports games, EA's franchise, nba, nhl, fifa series, etc, etc. Truth is, ISS when upon its release proved to be an exception to the usual scripted mess that sports games usually tend to be, and so with it's digital control.

Ah, still wouldnt argue that as you say, digital control doesnt allow complete freedom in sort of sense it perhaps should, as in passing and such, and perhaps making the control fully analogue would be a good step in developing the series, I dont know. But I'd argue making the game less scripted, when it comes to colissions, tackles, dribbling and such, then would be even greater challange. Dribbling in the the psx games was pure genious new sensation IMO, due the sheer simplicity that was changing the player in a limited direction, at the rigth time, it was all about timing. All so balanced and ball deflections, colissions all that made sense.

I still havent played a decent sport game that didnt feel scripted with analague control, all I know. Not that that says anything. Havent tried Kingdom football and maybe I should.

excuse my rambling :)
 
ClassicD said:
I would.

Obviously you're going to have a clamour for positions as 10,000,000 Maradona-wannabees appear, but some folk like doing a job as part of a team. There will be an abundance of people who will play as part of a team and those teams who play more seriously will have players for every position - they won't just have someone in at left-back because the attacking slots are used, they'll have someone there who will always play left-back.

The numbers won't be a problem, there are more than enough folk who'd be willing to play. Some folk get as much enjoyment out of shutting out a striker or marking a dangerous winger out of the game as others do from slamming one into the onion bag, seriously.

Just think about it, you could have man of the match awards decided by votes from all who took part in the game, etc.

I really wish they hadn't said this feature was what they'd eventually like to do as I now want it more than ever!
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I agree. I think it's one of these things that when you actually get down to trying it out, particularly in "serious" matches, it could be quite thrilling, no matter what position you're playing (except keeper, unles they add some who new controls for them). People would take on the responsibility and take pride in a good defensive performance just like a real life defender would. And should you happen to push up front for a late corner and pop up with a late equalising goal in a crucial match, imagine how great that would feel.

I think playing SB would be cool. You could make surging breaks down the wing, delivering enticing crosses, maybe even try cutting inside and smashing in a few shots from the corner of the box, but also have to get back for defensive duties. Your reading of the game would be important because if you make a run forward but lose possession and the opposition break down you wing which you've now left exposed, your team mates (real people) are not going to be too impressed. Too many screw-ups and you might get dropped. The pressure will be on to perform for the team.

Of course, the world will be full of wreckers, defenders who spend their time trying to dribble up the park and score from 40 yards, guys who chase the ball all over the park ignoring their duties, etc, but these guys wouldn't be picked for the serious leagues, so no problem.

But even for just casual kick arounds, it should a hoot.
 
11 v 11 sounds fun as long as the gamers are serious about
being a SB or CB or DM or CF...I'm sure people will be ready
to play that....just like in real life football.

BUT....I hope Konami are not ditching the single-player
experience as part of this.
I really hope they improve the AI and tone down the scripting.
I really want different teams to play differently.
They should really revamp the ML.
I agree a lot on what Jiwa says, almost spoke my unspoken words.
 
ClassicD said:
Obviously you're going to have a clamour for positions as 10,000,000 Maradona-wannabees appear, but some folk like doing a job as part of a team. There will be an abundance of people who will play as part of a team and those teams who play more seriously will have players for every position - they won't just have someone in at left-back because the attacking slots are used, they'll have someone there who will always play left-back.
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Spot on...

I was linking this with online clan games, the *better* online teams (or clans) will have people that are dedicated to one position and are serious about playing those positions.

Anyone thinking it'll be the old harry enfield joke with all 10 of your outfield players following the ball, your team will quickly be humiliated by a team with any kind of unity or positional sense.

The 8 way 'scripting' will only go when the animation data and interaction can improve. You couldnt just use the current 8way animation data and slot it into 360 movement as players feet will slip, look jerky.... you'll need atleast 32 way animation.
 
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ClassicD said:
I would.

Obviously you're going to have a clamour for positions as 10,000,000 Maradona-wannabees appear, but some folk like doing a job as part of a team. There will be an abundance of people who will play as part of a team and those teams who play more seriously will have players for every position - they won't just have someone in at left-back because the attacking slots are used, they'll have someone there who will always play left-back.

The numbers won't be a problem, there are more than enough folk who'd be willing to play. Some folk get as much enjoyment out of shutting out a striker or marking a dangerous winger out of the game as others do from slamming one into the onion bag, seriously.

Just think about it, you could have man of the match awards decided by votes from all who took part in the game, etc.

I really wish they hadn't said this feature was what they'd eventually like to do as I now want it more than ever!
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This is what I'm trying to say. Getting the overall job done for the team is as satisfying for as scoring a goal. Imagine having the job of a CB against an attacking team like Barcelona and you had to draw the game to win on away goals. Thats the sort of challenge I like to take up.

Its this 11 vs 11 option that will add more meaning to victories.
 
Let's be realistic, we won't see the PES/WE:I in the Western hemisphere until 2007. If the next gen. versions of WE aren't going to hit the Japanese market until late 2006, then we won't get anything until Spring/Summer 2007. WE10:I/PES6 will stil be current gen. machines with same slowdown problems and probably no freaking crowd at all this time around!

EA may be money whores (and Konami definitely are too, let's not paint them to be saints with their multi-releases) but they will have released an updated FIFA 06, FIFA RTWC 06 and FIFA 07 on the next gen. consoles before Konami have even had a chance to release one. Taking into account the first releases on new consoles of titles are always a little shoddy, we may have to wait until Fall 2008 before we have a decent version of PES/WE:I on the XBox360/PS3!!!!!! At least EA will have hadsome trial and error and feedback before then. I fear Konami arealmost 3 years away from delivering us a decent next gen. title under their own published release schedule.
 
From CVG : Seabass also revealed a few more tantalising details including intriguing plans for an online version of the game's Master league feature. The Master league has functioned as PES's league mode where you build up a team of superstars to take on the world's best clubs. Seabass' development team are still inking in the final details but apparently the main online stumbling block will be star players - balancing the transfer market when there is literally only one Wayne Rooney or Andriy Shevchenko
 
TheWolf said:
Let's be realistic, we won't see the PES/WE:I in the Western hemisphere until 2007. If the next gen. versions of WE aren't going to hit the Japanese market until late 2006, then we won't get anything until Spring/Summer 2007. WE10:I/PES6 will stil be current gen. machines with same slowdown problems and probably no freaking crowd at all this time around!
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Sorry dude but I disagree, I think we'll get a WE10/PES6 on the next gen machines. They started work on the next gen games ages ago. The xbox360 will be out so there's a machine for PES6, also Konami will release WE10 on PS3 and if they get the worldwide release they want we will get PES6 on PS3.
 
Although TheWolf is correct in that the 360 version of WE won't hit Japan till Q4 2006, I wouldn't automatically assume Japan will be it's usual 4 months + ahead of Europe in getting it. I don't think there's any way Konami are going to miss the Christmas period, next-gen PES will follow next-gen WE very quickly, or perhaps even beat it to the punch (given MS' failings in Japan, it makes more sense financially to first release it in a stronger region for that machine, i.e. Europe).
 
ClassicD said:
Although TheWolf is correct in that the 360 version of WE won't hit Japan till Q4 2006, I wouldn't automatically assume Japan will be it's usual 4 months + ahead of Europe in getting it. I don't think there's any way Konami are going to miss the Christmas period, next-gen PES will follow next-gen WE very quickly, or perhaps even beat it to the punch (given MS' failings in Japan, it makes more sense financially to first release it in a stronger region for that machine, i.e. Europe).
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Remember though bud, we've had years of Konami not making any marketing or PR sense whatsoever!

Konami release the titles here in the States about 4 months before the new Japanese version comes out each year. So basically any Konami WE:I title released here has a 4 month shelf life before anybody serious about the games, imports (or downloads) the next WE!!!

Talk about cutting off your own sales potential. The WE:I game only need to be converted to NTSC and put in a different box yet it takes Konami almost 5 months to do it!!! Does that make any sense? They miss the Christmas market and allow gamers 5 months to either import or d/l PES!!!

I wouldn't bet on Konami having a release ready for the Western hemisphere in time for Christmas 2006 just because it "makes sense" or seems a logical business move. If anything, that's a good indication of why we'll be waiting until Spring 2007 for a next gen. title from them.
 
Classic, you know i always think you are one of the very few experts here on evoweb and so on. i only very rarely disagree with things you say about winning eleven gameplay. but it happens every once in a while. just now it did again:

you know that ps3 winning eleven's MUST HAVE FULL 360 degree analogue control.

you just need to make you believe you want it ;-)
otherwise i'll help you out ;-)

see ya
cappz aka "the oldest pro-analogue member on evoweb" ;-)
 
ClassicD said:
Although TheWolf is correct in that the 360 version of WE won't hit Japan till Q4 2006, I wouldn't automatically assume Japan will be it's usual 4 months + ahead of Europe in getting it. I don't think there's any way Konami are going to miss the Christmas period, next-gen PES will follow next-gen WE very quickly, or perhaps even beat it to the punch (given MS' failings in Japan, it makes more sense financially to first release it in a stronger region for that machine, i.e. Europe).
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I think Classic is right, did'nt PES4 first come out on the XBOX ?
And after that WE8:I came out for the XBOX ?
 
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