eFootball PES 2020 Discussion Thread (PS4/Xbox One)
- Thread starter Lami
- Start date
- Staff
- #5,552
Try switching on this option, where it shows you how you switch manually. Its in the same settings as Pass Assistance, just dont remember how its called. Shows a beam when you switch players with right stick.
I was using it on Pes19. It wont help you offensively, coz everything happens too fast, but it might be a big help in the defense, as you can pick in advance players to mark and track runs.
Its 'positioning guide', or something like that?
Also it helped me understand the crazy logic behing switching players manually..
It's a bit annoying yes, but it don't bother me too much, I'm not one of those who complain for every little thing. It doesn't have an impact really, they're not selling those players,it's just that they're listed there but actually aren't on transfer list I believe.
I didn't see any weird transfers or big ones in my 1st season, now in my 2nd, there have been some big transfers..salah to real, bale to Liverpool and a couple of more..but nothing like before where some players changed clubs every transfer window or season..much better now overall.
About Superstar and scripting(someone was mentioning it) I havent really had problems with it. The game is much more enjoyable, not like 19 where you got so frustrated and wanted to throw the controller out of the window. My defense is better and they're not one step behind in the box as in previous Pes, where you often didn't have time to react and close them down. 1st season(with Man united) I had 18W-10D-12L(lost last 2-3 games)..now in 2nd season I'm on 8-2-2..playing much better. Overall I'm conceeding about 1 goal on average,about the same as in season one. I already had 6 injuries in my first 10 games I think. Liverpool is crazy, toughest team. I've had fantastic games vs Man city especially,where I came back and won 2 times, last one was a draw. Superstar is not so unrealistically hard as before, some games are easy, others can be a struggle to break the AI down but find it easier now to create chances and score.
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Peter Withe
It must be. It is! Peter Withe!
- 10 August 2018
Completely disagree. Superstar is a scripted mess. CPU let’s me have the ball, sure. But some of the fouls that it gets away with are shocking, anything to stop me scoring.
All games end 0-0, 1-0 win or a 1-0 loss on the 93rd minute. Real tedious stuff.
TroyDeeneyScoredAPenal!
League 1
For me Superstar is awful as the CPU makes every other team feel like they are Barcelona or PSG or Liverpool. Your players suddenly can't get simple passes away and its scripted to hell.
- Staff
- #5,557
I always felt superstar is a bit crazy level to play..
Maybe its time to drop the diff and go manual to balance it out..?
Im having some really good games there.
What I really like this year is that once I mark the AI players (playing on conservative defending) and put some pressure on ball receiver - they make mistakes. They pass out of play, or hoof the ball out in panic. Dont really remember such 'human' reactions in any other Pes games.
Haha not for me. Most goals I score in last 15-20 minutes. Maybe in majority a Score mostly 2 goals per game but I've had a couple of games scoring 4 goals and even won 7-0 vs Servette in EL some days ago. Everton game 3-4 win for me..I generally feel it's much better now..not struggling as I did before. I even have more fouls now, I've had 5 games with 4+ fouls in my session I played a couple of days ago..8 vs Man city.
Don't agree mate, Weak teams aren't that good, some of them are better cause they don't play defensively, like Burnley etc but no near as before where the backheeled and played ping ping passing mostly. I play aggressively and use gegenpress if needed in 2nd half, force them to make mistakes and usually score late in games.
Thank goodness I'm not and never have been very good at this game. Having a really enjoyable time on fuma and professional in league mode with seemingly very little scripting. Certainly for me this is the most fun from the game since the early days. Just wish the atmosphere and number of available grounds could be improved on and it would be more than I could expect from a Konami game given their past track record.
Will check that out, cheers! I have it set to Semi assisted atm. Online it's a horror show with the switching, especially for defense.
Negatrev
Premiership
- 19 September 2003
The thing is, especially if you are playing in the ML, the 'scripting' can be a hidden from you for quite a while. It wasn't until my fourth season of the ML that some really obvious handicapping of my players was kicking in (after 4 seasons I was fully aware of how they should handle on any given TS and motivation as well, so REALLY obvious). It seems to come faster based on your successes and what difficulty level you play at, but the exact trigger is still a mystery to me. But, on TP in my 3rd season was the most fun season of my ML before the handicapping became a bit of a grind (requiring moving the difficulty down to Pro, which is a little too easy at times, but at least fun still) so I hope you get at least a 3rd awesome season (if it is the ML you're playing).
- Staff
- #5,563
I have switching on semi assisted myself. But there's another setting there - ON/OFF type of thing. And it only helps you when you switch players manually, with right stick.
Shit I really need to check how its called tonight, coz someone asked few days ago too. If you cant find it - ill check it later on.
Elanimator
Championship
- 5 November 2017
Think it's "target guide".. I think the downside is it turns on other target guides also.
Personally, I use "next player indicator". I use it ever since it's added a couple of years ago. Can't play defense without it because of bad switching. Sometimes, the opponent will score an easy goal just because I'm struggling to choose the right player(to defend the dribbler) with L1.
Since using it, If the "next player chosen" is wrong then that's the time I switch player manually.
I think it's a good addition, I'm really surprised I haven't met someone who uses it online. I guess most fuma players turn it off but even most non-fuma don't use it.
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Negatrev
Premiership
- 19 September 2003
It's quite possible that this is something that isn't 'passed on' in the net code. So people might be using it, but you not see it (more likely not this clever though!).
Ameppe
International
- 23 December 2007
- SSC Napoli
I know it seems like a Konami defence post, but the point is: Pes needs script.
You can't expect Master League at Superstar level to be free from script.
It's the amount of script that makes it acceptable or not. I'm just comparing Pes 2019 and Pes 2020 and there has been a great improvement in that.
Script is the way Konami handles difficulty until they decide to focus on AI and making it much more human-like. It's not just Pes though, other games handle difficulty like there is no difference at all between lower and higher levels. Try playing every Cod, The last of Us, God of War,every Rpg or every other single player game at various difficulty levels, you will see the only difference between levels is just AI making more damage and having boosted HP pools, no different or more intelligent actions, you don't feel like AI becomes smarter with higher levels.
It's bullshit but it's bullshit you have to accept if you want to enjoy games, otherwise it's better to stop playing videogames altogether.
Videogames will solve this when they will focus on AI human-like behaviour. I see many other technical fields are trying to really improve AI, with AI machine learning, improving AI translation, human-like AI controlled robots, but in videogames improvements are just limited to graphics and animations.
Hopefully with the now confirmed Ryzen 8 cores 16 threads CPUs powering Ps5 and very likely next Xbox One too, developers will definitely focus on improving AI. It's the last step videogames need to feel more realistic, it's an exciting possibility but i'm honestly disappointed by the focus they are giving to loading times and ray tracing when they are talking about next gen.
What about better AI? It's time, we have had this stupid AI since forever in videogames.
You can't expect Master League at Superstar level to be free from script.
It's the amount of script that makes it acceptable or not. I'm just comparing Pes 2019 and Pes 2020 and there has been a great improvement in that.
Script is the way Konami handles difficulty until they decide to focus on AI and making it much more human-like. It's not just Pes though, other games handle difficulty like there is no difference at all between lower and higher levels. Try playing every Cod, The last of Us, God of War,every Rpg or every other single player game at various difficulty levels, you will see the only difference between levels is just AI making more damage and having boosted HP pools, no different or more intelligent actions, you don't feel like AI becomes smarter with higher levels.
It's bullshit but it's bullshit you have to accept if you want to enjoy games, otherwise it's better to stop playing videogames altogether.
Videogames will solve this when they will focus on AI human-like behaviour. I see many other technical fields are trying to really improve AI, with AI machine learning, improving AI translation, human-like AI controlled robots, but in videogames improvements are just limited to graphics and animations.
Hopefully with the now confirmed Ryzen 8 cores 16 threads CPUs powering Ps5 and very likely next Xbox One too, developers will definitely focus on improving AI. It's the last step videogames need to feel more realistic, it's an exciting possibility but i'm honestly disappointed by the focus they are giving to loading times and ray tracing when they are talking about next gen.
What about better AI? It's time, we have had this stupid AI since forever in videogames.
TommyC0ckles
Conference
- 13 July 2015
Quick question, I’m sure someone somewhere has probably addressed it but I’m no longer cool and hip, so my technical ability to track down the answer is missing.
The Brazilian leagues. Will they be updated by Konami or is this their final form? Lot of transfer issues and fake names about, as well as the usual Santos ‘missing half a squad’ mystery.
Also while I’m here, is it just me or was Robbie Rotten not actually that bad? I know Sporticus meant well but he came across as a bit of a dick, and Stephanie was a bit creepy. I know she’s only 8 in that show but always seemed like she was up to no good. Feel a bit sorry for Robbie in that town. Stand up to bullying people. Good job Rosey and Jim never had to deal with Sporticus, he’d have ruined their canal based adventures.
But yeah, any info on the Brazilian leagues would be appreciated. Cheers.
The Brazilian leagues. Will they be updated by Konami or is this their final form? Lot of transfer issues and fake names about, as well as the usual Santos ‘missing half a squad’ mystery.
Also while I’m here, is it just me or was Robbie Rotten not actually that bad? I know Sporticus meant well but he came across as a bit of a dick, and Stephanie was a bit creepy. I know she’s only 8 in that show but always seemed like she was up to no good. Feel a bit sorry for Robbie in that town. Stand up to bullying people. Good job Rosey and Jim never had to deal with Sporticus, he’d have ruined their canal based adventures.
But yeah, any info on the Brazilian leagues would be appreciated. Cheers.
- Staff
- #5,568
I might be wrong, but I dont think it does. I think the name is very misleading. Apart from target guide you also have 'aiming guide' option and that switches all the other guides. I think this one is only working with manual player switching and its very helpful. At least help you understand how manual switching works.
Second player indicator is also very useful thing, not only for switching players. It also shows which player will apply pressure if you choose to send AI to do the dirty work.
Peter Withe
It must be. It is! Peter Withe!
- 10 August 2018
Exactly this.
Everything is so stiff and rigid on Superstar in the Master League. ALL of my players feel terrible 90% of the time. I get why Konami do this. "You want to play on a high difficulty? Then here you go, you asked for it!"
It's not balanced or realistic. Top Player is great until your TS rises and then you'll demolish most teams with ease. As soon as you put it up to Superstar, well, you know what happens.
The game is so damn robotic still. I'm sorry to use these words again but football players simply aren't that rigid and stiff in real life.
I can't see how PES will ever move away from this model either. It's just how they view the beautiful game at the end of the day. Want it slow? You've got it. But they make everything slow - my players feel like they're always running in quick sand. Then you've got really quick wingers like Lucas Moura and it feels like I'm breaking into a jog rather than actually sprinting past the CPU defender.
Oh and Konami - you don't have to show every little replay of pointless crap - maybe they want to highlight that there IS actually fouls, just very few of them? We don't need to see it. Everything is so repetitive, slooooow and tedious.
All of it is still so...meh. When I read that people are into their 4th ML season already, I'm so envious. Is there something with this game, this series that I'm simply not 'getting'?
The old PES games were fun. First and foremost, they were fun. It's lost that magic for me. It's lost the unpredictability. It's trying way too hard to be the serious, thinking man's football game. But then it contradicts itself by having such arcadey, simplistic shooting.
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- Staff
- #5,570
I'll tell you what I love about the game (in the ML).
I played a few games last night, and two matches in a row stood out. I played Huddersfield at home, who weren't as high up the league as they should be, and I had 73% possession against them. Which may not be entirely realistic, but they were playing defensive, counter-attacking football. (It ended 0-0.)
The next game, against Hull, they had 68% possession, and I was having to play like Huddersfield were. (I lost 2-0.) My point being, compare the two matches to each other and they were completely different. That has to be the most important thing about playing the AI, right?
The atmosphere etc. may make every game look the same on the surface (and I've very sadly started putting a PC together to try and amend this as much as possible), but the actual style of play really does differ.
This is as Tranmere (who I've made the worst English team in the game, realism), and on PA1. Can't play on Top Player because it's just too easy to win matches against almost-equal opposition.
If there was a ratio or something to represent each difficulty and the kinds of teams you can expect to beat, with 0 being "Barcelona = Barnsley", 1 being "ultra realism" and 2 being "Barnsley = Barcelona"... I'd say Top Player is a 0.8 and Superstar is 1.2, with Legend being 1.4.
If I could play Top Player on PA0.5 I'd be set for life...
I played a few games last night, and two matches in a row stood out. I played Huddersfield at home, who weren't as high up the league as they should be, and I had 73% possession against them. Which may not be entirely realistic, but they were playing defensive, counter-attacking football. (It ended 0-0.)
The next game, against Hull, they had 68% possession, and I was having to play like Huddersfield were. (I lost 2-0.) My point being, compare the two matches to each other and they were completely different. That has to be the most important thing about playing the AI, right?
The atmosphere etc. may make every game look the same on the surface (and I've very sadly started putting a PC together to try and amend this as much as possible), but the actual style of play really does differ.
This is as Tranmere (who I've made the worst English team in the game, realism), and on PA1. Can't play on Top Player because it's just too easy to win matches against almost-equal opposition.
If there was a ratio or something to represent each difficulty and the kinds of teams you can expect to beat, with 0 being "Barcelona = Barnsley", 1 being "ultra realism" and 2 being "Barnsley = Barcelona"... I'd say Top Player is a 0.8 and Superstar is 1.2, with Legend being 1.4.
If I could play Top Player on PA0.5 I'd be set for life...
Elanimator
Championship
- 5 November 2017
I think you're right, there's the other one "direction guide".I might be wrong, but I dont think it does. I think the name is very misleading. Apart from target guide you also have 'aiming guide' option and that switches all the other guides. I think this one is only working with manual player switching and its very helpful. At least help you understand how manual switching works.
Second player indicator is also very useful thing, not only for switching players. It also shows which player will apply pressure if you choose to send AI to do the dirty work.
Yes, "next player indicator" is a great indicator for team presses too. It's helpful because most of the time, the game chooses the wrong player to press which destroys your defensive formation. At least with it, you'll know if the wrong player will press so you can cancel it or do other things to defend.
It's really very helpful... It's very helpful because when the game chooses "the next player to switch to and player to press", they choose the wrong players a lot of times.
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Negatrev
Premiership
- 19 September 2003
Absolutely. But there are better and worse ways of handicapping players.
I think the biggest negative is if the 'scripting' simply reduces the stats of your players. Suddenly having a player feel 'slow' for no reason other than the handicap kicking in is a little too obvious.
I would prefer it if only the oppositions stats were affected, not my teams and also I would prefer it if it didn't immediately alter the oppositions playing style (although this might simply be tied to their stats improving).
An any given day, it's possibly that Messi COULD win a header against Van Dyke. It's just very unlikely. So having the difficult enough that it gives Messi more of a chance in that aerial battle is fine, but unfortunately a little too much of the handicap is a blunt hammer when more finesse is needed.
I'd prefer subtle things were applied.
- GKs have just a little higher stats (but not unbeatable)
- Opposition gets a few points bumped up in physical stats (their actual skills shouldn't really alter)
- depending on position, certain key stats could have a boost (like jumping and tackling for a CB)
It's certainly a difficult thing to do, but it does feel like they could learn a little more subtly in how it's applied.
PS. Still love the game though
PPS. Some amazing advancements have been made in the indie gaming scene in the last ten years around game AI. Generally, they have sacrificed something (like only being 2D as a very basic example) in order to use more resources on AI 'thinking'. We're still a fair few years off, mainly because DEV mostly code for console limitations first. PC (which still has the most resources available for complex AI logic) will just have the same actual game, but possibly allow for you to use your excess resource (over a console) for cosmetics like draw distance, resolution, frame-rate and texture/shadow quality (among other things).
Ameppe
International
- 23 December 2007
- SSC Napoli
During summer with emulators i tried playing Iss Pro Evolution 2 master first and then Pes 5 master at highest difficulty level. Let me tell you, they were both as you would call it "boring". Very few scoring opportunities, CPU defending like crazy, closing every offensive play you made, plenty of 0-0 or 1-0 exactly like in Pes 2020. You had to be really smart and quick to find spaces and score a goal and when you scored that was the gratification you were waiting for. Against low rated teams it was actually more difficult to score compared to top player teams, again, like in Pes 2020.
I suggest you to try and replay the old Pes and feel if you still find them fun or if it's your childhood memories giving those games a rose tinted aura of fun.
I admit i don't follow indie scene and it's a bit offtopic, but what games would you suggest as examples of advanced AI?
Elanimator
Championship
- 5 November 2017
I have to test it when I play against a cousin. Just want to make sure.
Maybe, I just didn't notice it in the past or maybe it isn't "passed on" in the net code as you said.
Sobakus
League 2
- 1 October 2018
There are licensing complications, as usual. On 24/10 (I think) there will be a DLC that will fix some of it. In the meantime, on the 12th will come this patch (it will be updated after DLC):
Negatrev
Premiership
- 19 September 2003
There's lots of interesting reading out there. Things like https://opsive.com/assets/behavior-designer/
Also quite a few social interaction games have been doing interesting things around realistic response. There's been some great 'director' style AIs for game difficulty in things like RimWorld among others. There are other games that just doin interesting and different things. Even way back in the early days of Steam and before. The AIs people were developing as modded bots for Counter Strike were very impressive at the time.
TroyDeeneyScoredAPenal!
League 1
I was about to go off on a rant until I saw your last bit. Konami went on about TeamVision and Adaptive AI all the way back in PES 2008.... what happened to that? Also yes Scripting I could accept if it wasn't as rampant as it is in ML on Superstar. Forget Legend difficulty if Superstar is that scripted I will end up bald with the amount of hair I tear out playing this!
sorry by the way if I am sounding like a broken record and re-posting similar things.
Lons
AMIGA 1200 HARDCORE FAN!
- 15 December 2007
This is what I mean about the manual crossing being so satisfying, saw that replay angle and thought I had to record it
K I N G!
- Staff
- #5,579
I suppose some sort of Adaptive AI is there.
AI sees and reacts to your style. You play constantly down the left wing and you will see them tight marking certain player. If they are winning - they go defensive, if they are losing - they go offensive. Switching swarm the box tactics and the sort. So we cant really say Adaptive AI is not there.
But yeah, scripting is sometimes blatant and very obvious. Like at some point every tackle you make is ineffective, or even if you tackle - your player still cant 'find' the ball and AI just jumps back on it. They hit the post, you have 27 lads in the penalty box yet the ball will always land at the feet of the one AI player that was also there.
Things like this happen in real life, obviously, but in pes its a bit too... obvious.
All you can do is have a sip of whisky and carry on. Its annoying but sure, what can we do. At least its not nearly as bad as 19 was..
Shoot me down if stating the obvious but i see alot of posts stating top player can be too easy but superstar too hard/scripted.
I play top player at home in the spl and change to superstar for away games which suits me for realism and if playing in the epl (higher standard of opposition) i play top player then change to superstar if playing against any of the top 6 teams.
Hope this helps but remember to check and change the level b4 everygame
I play top player at home in the spl and change to superstar for away games which suits me for realism and if playing in the epl (higher standard of opposition) i play top player then change to superstar if playing against any of the top 6 teams.
Hope this helps but remember to check and change the level b4 everygame