The Retro-PES Corner

So I was researching the earlier ISS games on SNES & PSX, I was wondering why they were titled with the prefix "Jikkyou" for example, Jikkyou World Soccer or Jikkyou Wining Eleven.

A quick google search implies Jikkyou translates to "Real" or "True" in Japanese. So I presume as the ultimate branding endorsement, These would translate as "REAL World Soccer" or "PURE World Soccer"?

It seems The Japanese also applied this naming convention to other sports games in the '90s such as their baseball and wrestling games.
 
MafiaMurderBag said:
So I was researching the earlier ISS games on SNES & PSX, I was wondering why they were titled with the prefix "Jikkyou" for example, Jikkyou World Soccer or Jikkyou Wining Eleven.

A quick google search implies Jikkyou translates to "Real" or "True" in Japanese. So I presume as the ultimate branding endorsement, These would translate as "REAL World Soccer" or "PURE World Soccer"?

It seems The Japanese also applied this naming convention to other sports games in the '90s such as their baseball and wrestling games.
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Yeah I remember that confusing me when I'd look through my N64 Magazine marvelling at the mysterious Jikkyou J.League Perfect Striker. And then seeing other sports games with the same tag that looked totally different. The dumpy baseball game came to mind:



The Jikkyou is more often than not dropped from the names when they're listed in English. Let's face it, most of the titles are long enough as it is! This was just a random example I plucked, where it makes the spine but not the cover (albeit in Japanese, circled).

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Studying the history of ISS/WE/PES is rewarding as it's hard work. It's an absolute labyrinth! 😆 The Osaka and Tokyo lineages, the multiple Japanese versions, the MLS titles, the Korea-only releases - pretty complex.
 
Flipper the Priest said:
The Jikkyou is more often than not dropped from the names when they're listed in English. Let's face it, most of the titles are long enough as it is! This was just a random example I plucked, where it makes the spine but not the cover (albeit in Japanese, circled).

Studying the history of ISS/WE/PES is rewarding as it's hard work. It's an absolute labyrinth! 😆 The Osaka and Tokyo lineages, the multiple Japanese versions, the MLS titles, the Korea-only releases - pretty complex.
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Yeah I was thinking brevity wasn't really a thing when it came to video game marketing and branding in the '90s. Of course as with all things video game history, It's largely trial and error with development and publishing.

It's also fascinating the notion of naming the same product 2 totally different things in both Euro & Japanese markets. Although Winning Eleven sounds like such badass commandeering name I wish they used it for both. Probably because the assumption is that people are too stupid to deduce that it's a football game if it didn't have soccer in the title? I don't know.

But certainly I've been wrapping my head around the release orders of the PS1 games and their versions and it's certainly a headache. Of course this gets simplified by the time we get to the PS2 & PS3 era, Probably due to costs of printing physical games hard to justify making so many revisions of the same game like they did with ISS 98 or the fact that with patching culture taking hold in the PS3/360 era there wasn't a need to make International or Liveware Evolution versions anymore.
 
Flipper the Priest said:
Studying the history of ISS/WE/PES is rewarding as it's hard work. It's an absolute labyrinth! 😆 The Osaka and Tokyo lineages, the multiple Japanese versions, the MLS titles, the Korea-only releases - pretty complex.
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I find it so fascinating and exciting, wish there was a wiki dedicated to all those details.
 
MafiaMurderBag said:
It's also fascinating the notion of naming the same product 2 totally different things in both Euro & Japanese markets. Although Winning Eleven sounds like such badass commandeering name I wish they used it for both. Probably because the assumption is that people are too stupid to deduce that it's a football game if it didn't have soccer in the title? I don't know.
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That's a really good point, why not use WE for the Euro market? Presumably they would have consulted non-Japanese people on this; it seems quite intuitive to me that eleven gives a clue to what the game will be about, and it's a simple message- it's like saying "The best team!". I think Winning Eleven is a better name than Pro Evolution Soccer, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense in English, now I think about it. In fact it sounds like the sort of lost in translation version of something that presumably sounds better in Japanese. That was definitely the case in the commentary of the first Pro Evo, when we had great lines such as "The wind is whistling through the stadium" (I wouldn't want it any other way!).
 
MafiaMurderBag said:
So I was researching the earlier ISS games on SNES & PSX, I was wondering why they were titled with the prefix "Jikkyou" for example, Jikkyou World Soccer or Jikkyou Wining Eleven.

A quick google search implies Jikkyou translates to "Real" or "True" in Japanese. So I presume as the ultimate branding endorsement, These would translate as "REAL World Soccer" or "PURE World Soccer"?

It seems The Japanese also applied this naming convention to other sports games in the '90s such as their baseball and wrestling games.
Click to expand...

Greetings.

Jikkyou or 実況 is composed of the kanji for “real” and for “situation”, and so could be translated as meaning live or on the spot or even play by play. It’s used in kanji compounds to make phrases like:

Let’s Play type playthroughs of video games
Play by play commentator
Live Broadcast etc.

So I guess that the sense is that you feel like you’re actually there in the game.

Have enjoyed reading about all this retro action, and appreciate the gaming philosophies of yesteryear. I won the Russia 2018 World Cup with England yesterday on PES6, was quite cheerful, but then today was thrashed 5-1 by Greece as Paraguay crashed out despite beating Spain (via own goal!) on PES3. And I honestly enjoyed the latter more, it’s always nice to feel there’s another challenge waiting.
 
second d1 mid season and leading by 5 points or so, so it took me one d1 season longer to be up there compared to pes4 but combined with d2 its the same amount of finished seasons, the main issue is the goals conceded its just 3, the second best team in this regard has 14 or so, it just feels unrealistic, so comparing this to pes4 id rather take the latter, less draws and more wins and easier title race but still in some matches the AI to be there and kick your arse atleast, compared to pes5

what i liked compared to pes4 (on we9le here) is that the com tries not to kick out the ball under pressure as easy, you the player end up with less possession, what i dont like is receiving the ball running down the wing close to the line and often the players makes an automatic attempt to go to the ball and goes out of play so you need to super cancel that which is annoying and takes some speed of for a split second, its sort of the same cheat i mentioned already on here the last putting away the ball from the foot when sprinting infront of goal is so long to get you off the ball its that kind of crap, the worst type of scripts really that affect your inputs instead of boosting the com team, do not understand why they did such stuff on pes5

the forced side steps (on 90° turns) is a mix-up, i like pes6 implementation better when it is optional with R2, also i do not like that second just slightly slower sprint with R2 and with that you can then turn the 45° angle turns more easily coming from sprint

anyway started pes6 ml with derby county will see how that goes, its like a mix, harder to score than pes4 but more attacking com than 5
oh and i forgot the penalties are heavily scripted in com favor as well on we9le, missed more than half for sure, so annoying, after all there is too much wrong with that title and i still do not understand why the gameplay modding scene is so obssessed with the title, the effort should be clearly 6 and 3
 
With 3 games left the important parts of the table look like this:-

1. Man City 68
2. Liverpool 63
6. Leicester 42
7. Arsenal 38
8. Southend 35
13. Southampton 28
14. Leeds 24
15. Burnley 23
16. Norwich 14

Man City are playing Liverpool which looks like the title decider right there. Southend at home to Southampton as we continue to press for a top six finish. Leicester are away to Everton and Arsenal are away to Man United.


Yes, back to winning ways again. And with Leicester drawing and Arsenal losing that means we are only 5 points from Europe with 2 games left. Also, it is hotting up at the top as Liverpool beat Man City 2-0. Leeds lost and Burnley drew so that keeps it tight at the bottom too. The strange thing now is that after every match regardless of the score, our players are dropping to their knees. It's as if they are programmed to think they can still win the league at the start of each match but then realise they cannot at the end. Hmm.. I wonder if that mentality will work for Spurs. :)
 
@geeeeee Another fine demolition job on the trophy dodgers :D Not that we should delve too deep into how my team are doing at the moment :LOL:



MafiaMurderBag said:
Probably because the assumption is that people are too stupid to deduce that it's a football game if it didn't have soccer in the title
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The irony being of course that the one place you would think they'd have opted for a game with Soccer in the title would be the place where they sold it as Winning Eleven! Which would probably have them thinking it might be an American Football game from the name.
 
so i tested the player turns here comparing pes4/we9le/pes6, and i think this is a major point why pes6 is so popular, because on pes4 there is no system in place at all, after jog/walk or sprint with the ball and then turn either 45° or 90° degree angle and the turn just happens, there is an animation for it (i think pes3 had none in some cases) but its still super fast, especially on players with high agility

then there is pes 5, the 90° turns are side steps which are fast and too effective against the com, the 45° turn has rarely this inertia animation in place, only after running then turn once and on the second or third turn it sometimes happens, unlike on pes6 where it always happens even with players that have agility and dribbling above 80 from the second turn, say you sprint then stop sprinting and turn 45° left and then the next turn to the right has the slow down "inertia" turn, and its not just after sprinting but also regular speed

also one can turn on the spot in pes 6, either 90° which the "circle" is larger but also 45°, say with ronaldinho it becomes literally turn on a dime, this is impossible on pes5, all the variations on that title are weird with silly extra touches and stuff, reminds me of later 2012/13 which sucks

ok thats all, just got me interested after my last posting i mentioned something about the player turns and wanted to test it out since i have here the 3 shortcuts of the games on the desktop
 
@Cubii97 like a lot of editing in PES, I like seeing finished kits but most of the time I can't get my head around it. Particularly with the models and changing the type in Notepad.
 
cosmo said:
so i tested the player turns here comparing pes4/we9le/pes6, and i think this is a major point why pes6 is so popular, because on pes4 there is no system in place at all, after jog/walk or sprint with the ball and then turn either 45° or 90° degree angle and the turn just happens, there is an animation for it (i think pes3 had none in some cases) but its still super fast, especially on players with high agility

then there is pes 5, the 90° turns are side steps which are fast and too effective against the com, the 45° turn has rarely this inertia animation in place, only after running then turn once and on the second or third turn it sometimes happens, unlike on pes6 where it always happens even with players that have agility and dribbling above 80 from the second turn, say you sprint then stop sprinting and turn 45° left and then the next turn to the right has the slow down "inertia" turn, and its not just after sprinting but also regular speed

also one can turn on the spot in pes 6, either 90° which the "circle" is larger but also 45°, say with ronaldinho it becomes literally turn on a dime, this is impossible on pes5, all the variations on that title are weird with silly extra touches and stuff, reminds me of later 2012/13 which sucks

ok thats all, just got me interested after my last posting i mentioned something about the player turns and wanted to test it out since i have here the 3 shortcuts of the games on the desktop
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Excellent points made. I posted something similar over a year ago regarding the passing system and player individuality and why it's so pronounced on PS2 compared to our space age game engines of present day. I'll dig it out when I find it.

But the simpler movement is part of the games charm, accessibility and ultimately it's acceptance of the events unfolding in front of the player's eyes because it often makes sense within the universe of the games engine.

When there's less variables when it comes to dribbling or defending as a result of the limited movement, It's a lot less defiant and infuriating. As much as I do enjoy 2021 and it's FOX derivatives, I can't get through a game without either swearing several times the unintuitive inertia of players or feeling anxious my defenders are going undermine me and stride in the opposite direction to the striker as soon as I take control of them.

I go back and play these older games and I can take conceding or even losing on the chin because the control and movement is so rudimentary, I understand how a mistake or misjudged incident happened and I have a lot more agency over the series of events that led to me giving away a goal or even scoring something satisfying myself.

I feel the more complicated this games get sometimes it leads to less control over the simplest things. It would be like replacing car wheels with spherical balls. Who asked for this shit and what does it enhance other than being aesthetically smoother?
 
goalgerd said:
If you could take requests that would be fantastic, I'm short of a few team kits here for a classic patch I'm putting together using shollyms as a base, the editing has got me through the last year of lockdown and subsequent furlogh
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You can request whatever team you want and i'll see what i can do..! (Btw im using PES 4 to create these concepts and the kit editing part on that game is a bit limited...)
 
Cubii97 said:
You can request whatever team you want and i'll see what i can do..! (Btw im using PES 4 to create these concepts and the kit editing part on that game is a bit limited...)
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I sent you a private message with the kits templates for the 1990/91 Serie A season, do you maybe know how to make one of them? I think some of them are very difficult.
 
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